Maiden settles the Hallowed Be Thy Name claim in full

srfc said:
23rd December 1981, hardly a huge amount of time difference between that and early 1982. 8 days to be precise.
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That is the date the song was played, not when it was written. The dates might be close, but Steve probably never had the intention to replace the so-called "guide lyrics"...
 
srfc said:
Quinn was credited for Life's Shadow. Presumably if his lyrics were so great and so important to Hallowed then surely Life's Shadow would have made as much money as Hallowed did.

Steve shouldn't have used two lines of bad lyrics, but it's outrageous that these shysters get 900k for it.
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I think you are missing the point here.

There is no doubt Led Zeppelin have made much more of an impact worldwide than the blues pioneers they ripped off more than once. That does not make their plagiarism any better. Same with Steve's. ;)
 
srfc said:
Quinn was credited for Life's Shadow. Presumably if his lyrics were so great and so important to Hallowed then surely Life's Shadow would have made as much money as Hallowed did.
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That does not hold well in court, sorry.
 
GhostofCain said:
That is the date the song was played, not when it was written. The dates might be close, but Steve probably never had the intention to replace the so-called "guide lyrics"...
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I agree, i think there's an element of truth to it though, the lyrics in question stick out like a sore thumb, it's the only pair of lines in the song that don't rhyme. I suspect he did use them because he couldn't come up with anything else and was under pressure for the album deadline. But I'd say it's also true that he thought he'd be able to get away with it.
 
GhostofCain said:
I think you are missing the point here.

There is no doubt Led Zeppelin have made much more of an impact worldwide than the blues pioneers they ripped off more than once. That does not make their plagiarism any better. Same with Steve's. ;)
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It was certainly sleezy to try and get away with it, but I don't think a couple of lines of lyrics deserve 900k out of 2 million in publishing income. Led Zep stole complete songs
 
srfc said:
It was certainly sleezy to try and get away with it, but I don't think a couple of lines of lyrics deserve 900k out of 2 million in publishing income.
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The £900,000 includes the legal costs, which by the time of the settlement were apparently over £500,000.

srfc said:
Led Zep stole complete songs
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And that is why they had to give songwriting credits to those they have plagiarised.
 
Forostar said:
"Whatever wrong there was" ?

This is about Quinn, people. I don't read much about him on the last few pages. It's all here:
http://metaltalk.net/news_seventeen/hallowed_be_thy_claim.php
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I don't understand your question ""Whatever wrong there was" ?". I clearly stated that plagiarising Beckett was wrong. I also already responded to the very article you posted here, and unfortunately, my point (which you acknowledged here) stands the same as it did then. Back then I asked everyone who would go up to champion Quinn's cause to look at it a bit more in detail, and I will do it again now.

If this really were about justice for Quinn, then the first person who should have been sued was Barton, who lied to Maiden by claiming all the credit for Life's Shadow was his. What this is really about is a shady character (McKay) milking the Maiden cow, because Barton couldn't have shit out 900,000 pounds for him. I know it's cool these days to hate on Maiden, but for heaven's sake, they already admitted to wrongdoing when they paid off Barton, the only problem is that they admitted it to the wrong person; but instead of acknowledging this and trying to reason about this in a non-belligerent manner, McKay straight out sued them because "they should have known" that Quinn, not Barton deserved the credit, which translates to "this is a lot of money for me".
 
Fully agreed but also appalled that Maiden didn't take this seriously, almost one million quid for the non-mainstream band is outrageous and it's both financial compensation and punishment. Steve could've claimed he didn't realize those were exact lyrics until some (short) time after the publishing...mind you they covered Beckett on their single in their commercial heyday. And they reached out to alleged songwriter some time after that. Regardless of the exact time frames one could play on the honest mistake card and claim Maiden did reach out to compensate on their own.

This also speaks a lot about The Number of the Beast, the record. Where McKay is dead wrong, is that neither Hallowed is the definitive track (there are a wide variety of those, depends on whom you're asking), neither is TNOTB the definitive album.
 
Perun said:
If this really were about justice for Quinn, then the first person who should have been sued was Barton, who lied to Maiden by claiming all the credit for Life's Shadow was his.
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You cannot force the one who was ripped off to deal with both the crappy dealers. Let Maiden sue Barton if they like. Quinn wanted justice from Maiden.
Perun said:
What this is really about is a shady character (McKay) milking the Maiden cow, because Barton couldn't have shit out 900,000 pounds for him. I know it's cool these days to hate on Maiden, but for heaven's sake, they already admitted to wrongdoing when they paid off Barton, the only problem is that they admitted it to the wrong person;
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Quinn could not have justice from Barton. What happened was not good enough.
Perun said:
but instead of acknowledging this and trying to reason about this in a non-belligerent manner, McKay straight out sued them because "they should have known" that Quinn, not Barton deserved the credit, which translates to "this is a lot of money for me".
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Some of it probably. An assumption. I'm more busy with the interest of songwriter Quinn who willfully hired this guy.
Zare said:
almost one million quid for the non-mainstream band is outrageous
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In your opinion. That's not how this ended up. McKay did not use magic.
Zare said:
Steve could've claimed he didn't realize those were exact lyrics until some (short) time after the publishing..
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Not believable. Not believable at all.
Zare said:
.mind you they covered Beckett on their single in their commercial heyday. And they reached out to alleged songwriter some time after that. Regardless of the exact time frames one could play on the honest mistake card and claim Maiden did reach out to compensate on their own.
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Absurd. Steve visited concerts of the band, was a fan. Knew the album.
Zare said:
This also speaks a lot about The Number of the Beast, the record. Where McKay is dead wrong, is that neither Hallowed is the definitive track (there are a wide variety of those, depends on whom you're asking), neither is TNOTB the definitive album.
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So with these words Maiden could have gone away with it, and carry on as if nothing happened? Nope.

I can see people would have wished Maiden would have defended themselves in a better way, but there were no better arguments.
 
Let me put it this way:

How else, in a realistic manner, do people out here think that Quinn should have his justice?

Talk to Maiden and have them changed the song credit(s)?
Talk to Maiden and have him financially compensated?

Would that have worked, just like that?
 
I'll sum my thoughts up in the following: I truly despise people like McKay. I do not believe that he is a crusader for truth and justice, I think he only cares about money. I think Quinn deserves justice, but I wish it hadn't been through someone like this. Therefore, I am now quite indifferent to his cause. I am not ready or willing to start to hate on my favourite band for some greater good that doesn't really interest me. There will always be the question over why Quinn never hit up Steve over this matter in the long period between 1982 and 2017, but only he will know why. For now, the case is closed. Maiden paid up; the whole matter was questionable, but what's done is done. What bothers me is that McKay already announced looking into whether there are more cases. He has licked blood, and I think he wants to bleed Maiden dry. He probably won't be able to, but he will try. This is what bothers me, and why I spoke my mind on this matter in the first place.
 
Forostar said:
Yes, I sure felt that despise. For several out here it made the case itself less important.
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It makes it less important for me, because Quinn hired McKay. As I said, again and again: Let Quinn have justice. But do I have to like a person like McKay for that? This is all I've been talking about.
 
Forostar said:
You cannot force the one who was ripped off to deal with both the crappy dealers. Let Maiden sue Barton if they like. Quinn wanted justice from Maiden.

Quinn could not have justice from Barton. What happened was not good enough.

Some of it probably. An assumption. I'm more busy with the interest of songwriter Quinn who willfully hired this guy.

In your opinion. That's not how this ended up. McKay did not use magic.

Not believable. Not believable at all.

Absurd. Steve visited concerts of the band, was a fan. Knew the album.

So with these words Maiden could have gone away with it, and carry on as if nothing happened? Nope.

I can see people would have wished Maiden would have defended themselves in a better way, but there were no better arguments.
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This is exactly how legal processes should not go. McKay needs proof that Steve attended Beckett concerts and he needs proof of direct intent of plagiarism in order to justify that kind of a sum. 0.9 out of projected 2M earnings for the song basically makes Quinn a co-writer for the 2 out of 40 lyric lines in a song that isn't solely driven by lyrics? Get fucking real. 900k is a slap on the head for bringing up that lousy defense and lying about events around the song which are easily double-checked (booltegs of the song being performed in its full format in late 1981), mentioning of "guide lyrics" which directly verify the hypothesis that Steve indeed did actively think about Life's Shadow while writing HBTN.

All this could've been avoided with good lawyers.
 
I think the mostly likely reason why Quinn never hit up Maiden until now is because he either didn't know about the theft (seems unlikely), didn't know he had legal options available to him (more likely), or didn't have the money to begin the legal process (most likely). Legally, from what I understand, Maiden is absolutely at fault for not researching other potential claimants when they paid off Barton. It could easily even be that they were aware that Quinn was out there but they chose not to engage with him in hope that there would be no legal case forthcoming. If so, that would have been foolish given the eventual growth in band revenue - had they settled with him back then, it would have cost them less money.

Zare said:
This is exactly how legal processes should not go. McKay needs proof that Steve attended Beckett concerts and he needs proof of direct intent of plagiarism in order to justify that kind of a sum. 0.9 out of projected 2M earnings for the song basically makes Quinn a co-writer for the 2 out of 40 lyric lines in a song that isn't solely driven by lyrics? Get fucking real. 900k is a slap on the head for bringing up that lousy defense and lying about events around the song which are easily double-checked (booltegs of the song being performed in its full format in late 1981), mentioning of "guide lyrics" which directly verify the hypothesis that Steve indeed did actively think about Life's Shadow while writing HBTN.

All this could've been avoided with good lawyers.
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0.4/2 million, because the rest was in legal fees, which don't pay any attention to the revenue being sued against. And considering how much good lawyers cost for this type of trial, it might have very well ended up costing that much money in the end anyway. Keep in mind the 900k quid does not include Maiden's legal fees as well! I am pretty sure that Maiden was hammered dead to rights in the end. They should have settled immediately.
 
LooseCannon said:
I think the mostly likely reason why Quinn never hit up Maiden until now is because he either didn't know about the theft (seems unlikely), didn't know he had legal options available to him (more likely), or didn't have the money to begin the legal process (most likely).
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The thread in this same forum with contributions from Beckett's drummer suggests that even (some) Beckett members were not aware of Hallowed be Thy Name owing its existence (at least partially( to Life's Shadow not that long ago:

https://forum.maidenfans.com/threads/the-beckett-connection.19282/

There is a huge amount of people out there who might not have heard Hallowed be Thy Name, regardless of how big Maiden might be.
 
Maiden now "have permission to use the previously misappropriated works without further dispute".
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Maiden may not have backed down though, I think it's possible to interpret this as that Maiden have actually bought the rights to the material they used. Considering that Barry McKay himself later admits that the figures involved, once examined, turned out to be "lower than expected", he may have decided it just wasn't worth pushing it any further if he wasn't going to get as much as he thought. The arrangement apparently suits all parties anyway. After all, Maiden never denied they had slipped up here, the dispute purely concerned who owed money to whom.
 
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