Let's try and get 1,000,000 replies to this post

The Flash said:
I think we've successfully made our points about this matter. What I don't get though is why you don't have high opinions of Atatürk. You've agreed to many points I made in regards to why I like him. Your points about Greeks, Armenians etc. has much do to with Ottoman Empire (which eventually the conversation led us to) but not Republic of Turkey and Atatürk himself. I do agree educational system wasn't enough to compete with Europeans but considering the place was already trash, it was a good way to start. It was more about changing philosophies rather than building up structures anyway. Shame Atatürk died too young, he wanted to explore more about educational system in Turkey.
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To be honest Flash, I don't think you read my posts very thoroughly. You shrugged off my concerns about his educational and cultural policy with something to the effect of, "nobody's perfect". Now, I certainly don't expect somebody to create a perfectly well-formed educational policy on the ashes of a miserable country like the Ottoman Empire. Still, I think there were things that he could and should have done better. You and most other Turks laud the introduction of the Latin Alphabet, but what good is that if it means you can't read the texts from your own past? I've met a number of Turks who made an effort to learn Ottoman, which was the language that was spoken in their home country a mere hundred years ago, and who complained excessively about how hard it is. If all of the sudden, Germans forgot how to read the texts from the last three hundred years of their history, the loss would be immeasurable. You think of it as a detail; I think of it as the foundation of a civilised and democratic country. In a polemic nutshell, you like Atatürk for turning the Turks into a nation of snappy dressers (and indeed, the people from Turkey have always struck me as extremely well-dressed), while I think the only reason why that happened is because he forbade the Turks to dress in any other way.

Next, let's talk about the elephant in the room. I consciously factored out the matter of Greeks, Armenians, Kurds and Arabs in the Republic of Turkey because I wanted you to see that I'm not going to reduce my opinions to crude deadbeat arguments. But it does not look like my strategy worked, especially because Foro came up with it anyway. Now, let me tell you that I know perfectly well to separate the Armenian Genocide that happened in the First World War from the involvement of the Armenians in the War of Turkish Independence. But I still haven't gotten an answer from you about why the Armenians did not deserve to receive an independent nation when the Turks did. With the Greeks, matters were different, because they were indeed aggressors who wanted to create a great Greek empire at the expense of the Turks, Bulgarians, Albanians and Macedonians. But is that a justification to simply drive the Greeks out of cities that they had been inhabiting for millennia?
I'm still not going to talk about the Kurds though, because the matter is just way too complicated; but it is at the heart of this issue where I find the original sin of the Turkish Republic and the cause of my deep resentment for people like Atatürk and Inönü.

But to jump in on the unrelated issue of the Armenian Genocide, I think Ariana asked the right question:

Ariana said:
If it's not a genocide, how do you call the systematic killing of a million people belonging to the same ethnic group? Because you can't deny the fact that those people were exterminated.
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Indeed, if it wasn't a systematic killing, then how do you explain the death of a million people who were all of Armenian descent?
 
1986 - the year of my birth, and one of the top 15 Maiden albums.

This thread has certainly picked up a lot of pace recently, I'm looking forward to contributing when I have more time (come Thursday hopefully). I might even read more than the first three words of all those long posts. ;)
 
Sir Patrick Moore died today. He presented The Sky at Night, an astronomy television programme.
It started in 1957 and he presented it over 50(!) years. The longest-running programme with the same presenter in television history.


He also wrote many books, was radio commentator and did lots of research. His specialty was the moon.
He co-discovered the transient lunar phenomenon. He also assisted in mapping the Lunar surface.
 
I read a book on the Armenian Holocaust too, maybe it's something that should be taught in schools more.


1987: A Nightmare On Elm Street Part III: Dream Warriors
 
The Joshua Tree is pretty great. A Momentary Lapse of Reason is OK, Learning To Fly is a cool song
 
The Joshua Tree was kind of part of my growing up so it has a sentimental value to it. Otherwise, I'm not overly fond of U2 and as for Momentary Lapse....not the best Floyd album but it has some decent songs on it.
 
I like a lot of U2's stuff despite the fact they generally get too much credit.
But the Joshua Tree is a fantastic album, worthy of all the attention.
 
Perun said:
Indeed, if it wasn't a systematic killing, then how do you explain the death of a million people who were all of Armenian descent?
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Armenians were killing local Turkish people in efforts to gain their national independence and they were allied by the ones we fought against. It doesn't matter if they deserved to be independent or not, they were on the other side, that's how war works, sadly. They were forced to leave their place and go to another planned region. (which was also a part of Turkish land) There's a simple explanation. Armenian people were battling with epidemic illnesses and they were of course people who weren't fond of them on their way. It's known that some Armenians were kidnapped by other countries' forces and put to other regions. There are many who joined Russian army. Like I've said before, that can happen anywhere and it's not a proof that the government itself systematically planned it.

Check out the 1918 pressing of the Encyclopedia Britannica. It says that around 600k Armenians were killed. In its 1968 pressing the number was 1,5 million. It always gets higher and higher, the number is never steady. Wonder why ?

Another thing about it the population records at the time. According to 1917 British Annual, there were 1.056.000 Armenians in Ottoman Empire. The number is always around one million in the sources from that era. But Armenian Genocide assertions now claim that 1,5 million Armenians were killed. There WEREN'T 1,5 million Armenians in the Empire let alone being killed. (Ottoman Empire's records say that there were 1.001.465 Armenians in 1893, 1.120.748 in 1906 and 1.221.850 in 1914. The number of people who were forced to migrate was 438.758 according to Empire's records. Where are those "1 million" people you talk about ? (you could say killing 438.758 people -which wasn't also the case- also counts as a genocide but with all these stretches in these arguments, how can you be sure that what you believe in is all true ?)

I can name all my sources in writing those, but that'd take too much time for a discussion on a forum.

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About Atatürk's policies against them which aren't related to Empire's policies as you know, Armenian land wasn't a part of "Misak-ı Milli" so we had no intention to invade over their land.

I do get your criticisms of him on cultural and educational policies. Kurdish subject is a whole different thing that has so many views to it. Many consider the events on Dersim Rebellion a genocide too, but it also wasn't a systematic action of killing a certain ethnic group. Still, with all you don't like about him, I don't think it's enough to be a reason not to like him, especially when you're a part of the Turkish youth, considering the very points I made at the start of this discussion all of which you agreed with. And that now we now need his thoughts and ideologies even more than ever, it really isn't idolatry that I wear a necklace that has his portrait carved on it. It's a message, a message that stands against the fundamental islamist, undemocratic and pathetic situation we now live under and that we'll never forget him even though the government tries as hard as they can to make us forget him.
 
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