Kevin Shirley - What do you dislike about his work with Maiden? (if you do)

[naranja]

DoD was Steve taking a work-in-progress and declaring it as finished. It sucks that Kevin went along with it, but I don't think there was any convincing Steve otherwise.

Also applies to every other person in the band thinking Futureal was the obvious first single for Virtual XI but not being able to convince Steve

 

[LosBastardos]

I don't hate the songs, but yeah, the production's notoriously terrible, up to the degree I actually managed to forget about it, because ever since the album came out, I always played the bootlegged Guitar Hero version.

(you know it's bad when this comparison is on the wikipedia page of your album

Spoiler

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I mean, this is almost a Vlado Meller-level botch job, I remember the original version being almost unlistenable in headphones.

That said, Dance of Death comes ... if not close, then at least half-way, for similar reasons (here somebody did a comparison of the waveforms of their albums and - surprise surprise - DOD looks almost like a pure block)

EDIT: I know this is an example of mastering, not production as such, buuuuut the producer should be responsible for that as well (and usually is, see the brickwalling of nearly every Rick Rubin-produced album)

If I remember correctly, with Death Magnetic the mixes were already compressed to the max. Usually this is done during mastering (like you mentioned), but with Death Magnetic they already did that during the mixing process. Obviously, it's case of doing a bit of mastering during the mixing process.

 

[MrKnickerbocker]

Having thought about it, the one complaint I was going to make isn’t actually a complaint.

It’s having different sounding production on songs from the same album.

The production, good or bad depending on taste, seems pretty uniform from BNW to FF (within in each album, obviously there’s a different sound between the albums).

But then on Souls I found some tracks sounded quite good and others, like Speed of Light, don’t sound very good at all to me (though I do like the actual song).

Senjutsu seems to have a different sound from track to track to my ears, which actually I don’t mind.

Better to have some variety than a whole album with a sound you don’t much care for. At least some will sound good.

I think this is a huge negative. It completely takes me out of the album and makes it feel like a collection of songs, rather than something coherent.

There's another thing to consider and that is that Shirley or not, 'Arry or not, the production has been going down recently overall, I mean, Tuomas Holopainen had a break from touring to focus on Yesterwynde, people tell me he employs the best Finnish producers and studio gurus that money can buy and yet the album sounds like utter shite, I could probably record something better on my old cassette tape dictaphone through a window with the band playing in a well in the garden for fuck's sakes.

I don't get it - the technology has moved forward so much, we have had so many technological achievements and if anything, getting a high-end gear has only become cheaper ... by any metric we should be improving, yet it seems to be rather rare coming across a modern album by a huge-ass band that wouldn't suck walrus balls, sound-wise. Why's that?

Nightwish's terrible sounding new album is for the exact opposite reason to Maiden's - they aren't testing on basic gear. Steve Harris decided somewhere around Dance of Death that stuff just sounded better "like it does from my car speakers" and we get what we get now. Tuomas, no doubt, has the best speakers money can buy and mixes in Dolby Atmos. I bet, if I had a surround sound system and time to sit in a fucking bunker and listen to music without interruption, Yesterwynde probably sounds pretty good.

EDIT: I know this is an example of mastering, not production as such, buuuuut the producer should be responsible for that as well (and usually is, see the brickwalling of nearly every Rick Rubin-produced album)

I don't think the producer should necessarily be in charge of mastering. It's a different process and benefits, IMO, from having some distance from the actual production.

 

[Ruflux]

If I remember correctly, with Death Magnetic the mixes were already compressed to the max. Usually this is done during mastering (like you mentioned), but with Death Magnetic they already did that during the mixing process. Obviously, it's case of doing a bit of mastering during the mixing process.

I think this has been proven to be a questionable claim at best, since the mastering engineer was known for brickwalled mixes, and the current Mastered for iTunes version of the album that's replaced the previous everywhere has the same mix, but not brickwalled to the point the bass frequencies are clipped out. Smells more like Rick Rubin (since he was the producer and known for his stupidly loud, distorted mixes) or someone told him to crank it and he tried to lay the blame on the mix engineer, Greg Fidelman, after the fact.

e: Oh yeah and to clarify, the Guitar Hero version of the album is a completely different mix, including shit like different vocal effects, incomplete arrangements (good old ProTools and quantized drum parts) and two versions of Suicide and Redemption with different guitar solos. So they didn't derive the MFiT version from those mixes either.

 

[Yax]

I think this has been proven to be a questionable claim at best, since the mastering engineer was known for brickwalled mixes, and the current Mastered for iTunes version of the album that's replaced the previous everywhere has the same mix, but not brickwalled to the point the bass frequencies are clipped out. Smells more like Rick Rubin (since he was the producer and known for his stupidly loud, distorted mixes) or someone told him to crank it and he tried to lay the blame on the mix engineer, Greg Fidelman, after the fact.

e: Oh yeah and to clarify, the Guitar Hero version of the album is a completely different mix, including shit like different vocal effects, incomplete arrangements (good old ProTools and quantized drum parts) and two versions of Suicide and Redemption with different guitar solos. So they didn't derive the MFiT version from those mixes either.

I think it is quite telling that he isn’t credited on the physical release. He told them not to credit because he did not want his name on that turd and he wanted to cover his back. No top, or even decent, mastering engineer would generate that level of distortion. I would imagine they had undistorted stems in an archive somewhere for subsequent rereleases. I do not doubt Jensen in this case. Somewhere along the line stuff got distorted that bad but not at the mastering stage.

 

[LosBastardos]

I think this has been proven to be a questionable claim at best, since the mastering engineer was known for brickwalled mixes, and the current Mastered for iTunes version of the album that's replaced the previous everywhere has the same mix, but not brickwalled to the point the bass frequencies are clipped out. Smells more like Rick Rubin (since he was the producer and known for his stupidly loud, distorted mixes) or someone told him to crank it and he tried to lay the blame on the mix engineer, Greg Fidelman, after the fact.

e: Oh yeah and to clarify, the Guitar Hero version of the album is a completely different mix, including shit like different vocal effects, incomplete arrangements (good old ProTools and quantized drum parts) and two versions of Suicide and Redemption with different guitar solos. So they didn't derive the MFiT version from those mixes either.

I just did quick search and found this article with an e-mail from Ted Jensen, who mastered Death Magnetic: https://mastering-media.blogspot.com/2008/09/metallica-death-magnetic-clipping.html

I’m certainly sympathetic to your reaction, I get to slam my head against that brick wall every day. In this case the mixes were already brick walled before they arrived at my place. Suffice it to say I would never be pushed to overdrive things as far as they are here. Believe me I’m not proud to be associated with this one, and we can only hope that some good will come from this in some form of backlash against volume above all else.

The article assumes it's genuine, but I agree that it is questionable.

 

[Ruflux]

I think it is quite telling that he isn’t credited on the physical release. He told them not to credit because he did not want his name on that turd and he wanted to cover his back. No top, or even decent, mastering engineer would generate that level of distortion. I would imagine they had undistorted stems in an archive somewhere for subsequent rereleases. I do not doubt Jensen in this case. Somewhere along the line stuff got distorted that bad but not at the mastering stage.

The way I see it, he didn't want his name on there because he did what he was told and brickwalled an already loud mix to all hell. Not his fault necessarily since he simply satisfied the clients' requests, but ultimately his responsibility as the mastering engineer. So he took himself off the blame list and later declared it was the mixes that were fucked, not his mastering job to avoid reputational damage. Understandable, if a little underhanded.

 

[JudasMyGuide]

I don't think the producer should necessarily be in charge of mastering. It's a different process and benefits, IMO, from having some distance from the actual production.

Just to be clear, I never said that the producer should do the mastering himself, I said that the producer is responsible for the mastering; much like with you describing the producer as a mid-level manager, the producer is to pick the technician to do the mastering and to ensure it's done well - AFAIK the bands usually pick the producer only and he's the person signed under the "sound" of the album, so to speak.

Maybe I'm wrong, but just like with the example I said - Rubin-produced albums very often have horrible mastering and I doubt it's a mere coincidence.

 

[Sth2112]

The muddy rythm guitar sound on BNW and TBOS, clippy production of DOD. He could also have pushed Bruce more on some of the recordings. Otherwise he's okay

 

[Kalata]

For all the Shirley isn't the problem posts I'd like to point out that he did admit in his own published studio notes that he doesn't like putting in extra work for sounds. Specifically I think he said if Nicko tunes his drums right then they should sound good once mic'd up. Which of course is a bit absurd for a producer to admit, and I sincerely doubt Steve would show up and stop him from EQing the drums till they're satisfied with the sound before they start recording. It's not like he stopped Shirley from supplementing the bass drum with samples, fixing up things like Nicko's double-foot work in Face in the Sand in ProTools or even quantizing the post-solo bit in Out of the Shadows.
Same goes for Adrian wanting to experiment with sounds and effects and being met with the old-school stick a mic in front of the cab and play mentality. For a band that absolutely took their time to get a good-sounding record out in the 80s it's a pretty drastic shift and I don't entirely buy it's solely down to Steve.

Good points. Although it could be worse... cough...
Also, Bruce's latest solo album proved this for the production and takes. They just don't put that much effort anymore, which is sad considering their legacy. And I have to say, Kevin's produced live albums of the band sound great, with much more power. It's a mistake not using him for the live stuff since 2017.

Maiden would never listen to a producer for the songwriting. To suggest or push for more takes, please yes!

Which is an interesting thing to comment on considering I think the drum sound is one of the only highlights of Shirley's post-BNW Maiden output.

I can agree with that.

Based solely on The Writing On The Wall, I think it's time to hand the co-producer reigns over to Adrian.

I want Adrian to bring some ''studio magic, sounds'', but I think Writing On The Wall doesn't sound that different from the recent SK material (maybe the latter is a clear mix). And Adrian said he likes SJ's production a lot. I think SJ's production was an improvement of the mix of the last 2 albums. I like PRR production, it's like a 90's one with a BNW feel. I'm sure Adrian likes how BNW sounds. If it was less muddy, I think AMOLAD would be my example of a modern Maiden production. BNW still has that 90's productions vibe, which is great.

I've said it before, for me the best think about Kevin's production is that it sounds unique and different for each album. And overall, I like how they sound, more or less. Perfect, nope lol. But that doesn't mean I don't want better production.

I think that's a big benefit of the "live in-studio" approach.

I don't argue, but some of the studio songs lose their power, which is not cool. I can enjoy almost all productions, but you want pristine sound, especially listening to other bands. How an album from the 90's sounds better, it's wild. Or some not famous or big bands. And I'm not talking just about Sneap's mixes.

DoD was Steve taking a work-in-progress and declaring it as finished. It sucks that Kevin went along with it, but I don't think there was any convincing Steve otherwise.

Yeah, like the album cover, unfortunately.

 

[Mosh]

Just throwing out that I think Adrian’s solo albums (that he had complete control over the production) sound pretty bad.

 

[Ruflux]

I think the biggest issue with Maiden and solo project productions from Maiden members is that they're all old men who've no doubt lost quite a bit of hearing in the upper range from age but also in general due to working under noisy conditions. Steve obviously has this the worst since he refuses to use earplugs on stage.

 

[chrriss]

Honestly, I respect his contributions, but sometimes his style feels a bit too theatrical for my taste—especially in the later albums. I miss the raw energy of the earlier Maiden sound. Also, some of the longer songs can feel unnecessarily stretched. That said, he's still a legend in the metal world.

 

[srfc]

Just throwing out that I think Adrian’s solo albums (that he had complete control over the production) sound pretty bad.

Agreed.

Also the guitar sound with Maiden seems to be one of the recurring themes in these types of thread, but no one ever calls out the guitarists for having shit tone. And they all do.

 

[MrKnickerbocker]

Also the guitar sound with Maiden seems to be one of the recurring themes in these types of thread, but no one ever calls out the guitarists for having shit tone. And they all do.

I think Murray and Adrian have perfect lead tones for their playing style. Janick’s is shit. And yeah, all their rhythm tones are average at best.

 

[Edington]

Relistened to this killer album today and thought this is more what I'd like Maiden to sound like, rather than an Invincible Shield/Firepower-esque sound. It's punchy, powerful and clear but lacks Sneap's pristine cleanliness, it's still got a bit of grit and rawness.

(Also a good opportunity to plug this album, 'cause it's good and more people should know it)

 

[MrKnickerbocker]

Relistened to this killer album today and thought this is more what I'd like Maiden to sound like, rather than an Invincible Shield/Firepower-esque sound. It's punchy, powerful and clear but lacks Sneap's pristine cleanliness, it's still got a bit of grit and rawness.

(Also a good opportunity to plug this album, 'cause it's good and more people should know it)

Yeah, I'd kill to hear Maiden with a production like that.