Kevin Shirley - What do you dislike about his work with Maiden? (if you do)
- Thread starter Dick Brucinson
- Start date
dickinson1978
Ancient Mariner
In dance of death during It's like the sound of the string rubbing against the fret of the guitar. I used google ttanslator
Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
I think I know what you mean. When the lead guitar starts playing the melody after the intro, right? Where it sounds a bit as if the strings are buzzing.
Personally, it doesn't bother me but I can see how someone could dislike it.
dickinson1978
Ancient Mariner
It doesnt bother me but ifnyou compare to seventh son or even xfactor sounds like they havent polish or mastered or work on that part
Edington
Last Son of The Miracle
This is the only insight into Birch's production that I could also remember. If Birch was gonna have any hand in Steve's songwriting then he should've told him to leave guff like Quest for Fire off Piece of Mind.
I wasn't pointing fingers in any particular direction, if I used your term it's 'cause I was kinda skimming the last few pages when I saw the comment about Kevin trimming down Steve's songs come up.
Ah, so we're back to baseless speculation pulled out of our own biases, great.
I was thinking about this recently, actually. Comparing Senjutsu to Invincible Shield, particularly the vocals, the former is a bit rougher and unpolished, whereas the latter is pristine and clean. But, then compare those songs to their live performances. Rob sounds incredible on the IS studio tracks but they're clearly hard for him to pull off live, for all Senjutsu's faults with its production, live Bruce sounds much closer to the record. I think that's a big benefit of the "live in-studio" approach.
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AncientMariner_Essex
Ancient Mariner
I saw priest on the tour with Saxon and Uriah heap and whilst Rob did sound decent and much better than I was expecting he certainly sounded miles away from what’s on the record.
When I first listened to invincible shield and panic attack burst out of the speakers it sounded like a track lifted directly from painkiller, 35 years ago. There’s been a lot of studio trickery on Robs voice on that record for sure.
Maidens approach is don’t put on record what you can’t do live and I respect that. That’s one of the reasons why maiden sound so good live still. Imagine studio tinkering to make Bruce sound like he did on seventh son in 1988 and imagine the disappointment live when he sounded nothing like the record.
Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
My issue with modern Maiden records isn't that they shy away from "studio trickery". It's that they left behind the perfectionism they had during 84-88. Listen to the overdubbed lead guitars on stuff like Losfer Words or The Duellists. The way they play nowadays is far too sloppy for sections like that and would sound incredibly muddy. It would all fall apart.
I understand that they don't have the patience and hunger they had in their mis to late 20s. That makes total sense. It's still a bit of a bummer listening to the last few records compared to how tight they were on BNW for example.
I understand that they don't have the patience and hunger they had in their mis to late 20s. That makes total sense. It's still a bit of a bummer listening to the last few records compared to how tight they were on BNW for example.
Azas
The Trial of Injustice
I don't see anything wrong with having a super well-produced album where the singer sounds better than in a real live setting. What’s the point of putting out a poorly produced record? Albums are like preserved moments in time—like summer postcards where everyone looks happy and beautiful. So give us those summer postcards, and when the live concert comes around, we’ll meet real life.*
Also, we all know Rob is old. Even listening to him on CD, it’s clear things have been touched up a bit. And we all go into a live show knowing he’s past his prime, so no one should be shocked he doesn't sound like it's still 1990. Personally, I don’t mind that at all.
If only Maiden would give me just one fucking summer postcard—like they used to in the '80s. I’m sick and tired of those bleak black-and-white industrial landscape shots.
*The real problem would be if some random young singer sounded like a monster on the record but ended up performing like current Vince Neil on stage. That’s where it gets disappointing. But Rob? Rob already has his summer postcards preserved in time. Back then, he didn’t just sound great on studio albums—he crushed it live too.
Also, we all know Rob is old. Even listening to him on CD, it’s clear things have been touched up a bit. And we all go into a live show knowing he’s past his prime, so no one should be shocked he doesn't sound like it's still 1990. Personally, I don’t mind that at all.
If only Maiden would give me just one fucking summer postcard—like they used to in the '80s. I’m sick and tired of those bleak black-and-white industrial landscape shots.
*The real problem would be if some random young singer sounded like a monster on the record but ended up performing like current Vince Neil on stage. That’s where it gets disappointing. But Rob? Rob already has his summer postcards preserved in time. Back then, he didn’t just sound great on studio albums—he crushed it live too.
Ruflux
Ancient Marinade
For all the Shirley isn't the problem posts I'd like to point out that he did admit in his own published studio notes that he doesn't like putting in extra work for sounds. Specifically I think he said if Nicko tunes his drums right then they should sound good once mic'd up. Which of course is a bit absurd for a producer to admit, and I sincerely doubt Steve would show up and stop him from EQing the drums till they're satisfied with the sound before they start recording. It's not like he stopped Shirley from supplementing the bass drum with samples, fixing up things like Nicko's double-foot work in Face in the Sand in ProTools or even quantizing the post-solo bit in Out of the Shadows.
Same goes for Adrian wanting to experiment with sounds and effects and being met with the old-school stick a mic in front of the cab and play mentality. For a band that absolutely took their time to get a good-sounding record out in the 80s it's a pretty drastic shift and I don't entirely buy it's solely down to Steve.
Same goes for Adrian wanting to experiment with sounds and effects and being met with the old-school stick a mic in front of the cab and play mentality. For a band that absolutely took their time to get a good-sounding record out in the 80s it's a pretty drastic shift and I don't entirely buy it's solely down to Steve.
MrKnickerbocker
clap hands
Which is an interesting thing to comment on considering I think the drum sound is one of the only highlights of Shirley's post-BNW Maiden output.
I think the work ethics are set by the leader - and that's Steve Harris. If Steve wants it to sound raw, and he's happy with Kevin's work no matter what, then why should Kevin be working harder than he has to?
I don't necessarily agree with this mindset, but I do think Steve's leadership when it comes to his "sonic vision" (or lack thereof) is to blame.
Based solely on The Writing On The Wall, I think it's time to hand the co-producer reigns over to Adrian.
Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
You raise some good points.
To be a bit more charitable to what he was saying, maybe he's of the mindset: "capture it properly and you won't have to do much afterwards. Otherwise you have to spend hours upon hours salvaging the recordings".
But yeah, spending time to find the right sound is important and a pity that they don't seem to be interested in that anymore.
OilyOarsome
Invader
Having thought about it, the one complaint I was going to make isn’t actually a complaint.
It’s having different sounding production on songs from the same album.
The production, good or bad depending on taste, seems pretty uniform from BNW to FF (within in each album, obviously there’s a different sound between the albums).
But then on Souls I found some tracks sounded quite good and others, like Speed of Light, don’t sound very good at all to me (though I do like the actual song).
Senjutsu seems to have a different sound from track to track to my ears, which actually I don’t mind.
Better to have some variety than a whole album with a sound you don’t much care for. At least some will sound good.
It’s having different sounding production on songs from the same album.
The production, good or bad depending on taste, seems pretty uniform from BNW to FF (within in each album, obviously there’s a different sound between the albums).
But then on Souls I found some tracks sounded quite good and others, like Speed of Light, don’t sound very good at all to me (though I do like the actual song).
Senjutsu seems to have a different sound from track to track to my ears, which actually I don’t mind.
Better to have some variety than a whole album with a sound you don’t much care for. At least some will sound good.
I remember thinking the process sounded interminable with Lars spending about six months to get a drum sound for the black album. It was worth it though, that album still sounds immense.
JudasMyGuide
The incorrigible papist
There's another thing to consider and that is that Shirley or not, 'Arry or not, the production has been going down recently overall, I mean, Tuomas Holopainen had a break from touring to focus on Yesterwynde, people tell me he employs the best Finnish producers and studio gurus that money can buy and yet the album sounds like utter shite, I could probably record something better on my old cassette tape dictaphone through a window with the band playing in a well in the garden for fuck's sakes.
I don't get it - the technology has moved forward so much, we have had so many technological achievements and if anything, getting a high-end gear has only become cheaper ... by any metric we should be improving, yet it seems to be rather rare coming across a modern album by a huge-ass band that wouldn't suck walrus balls, sound-wise. Why's that?
I don't get it - the technology has moved forward so much, we have had so many technological achievements and if anything, getting a high-end gear has only become cheaper ... by any metric we should be improving, yet it seems to be rather rare coming across a modern album by a huge-ass band that wouldn't suck walrus balls, sound-wise. Why's that?
To mention Metallica again, At least Maiden have never had an album quiiiite as awfully produced as the clip fest that is Death Magnetic. In retrospect the songs all suck too but the production is heinous.
JudasMyGuide
The incorrigible papist
I don't hate the songs, but yeah, the production's notoriously terrible, up to the degree I actually managed to forget about it, because ever since the album came out, I always played the bootlegged Guitar Hero version.
(you know it's bad when this comparison is on the wikipedia page of your album
I mean, this is almost a Vlado Meller-level botch job, I remember the original version being almost unlistenable in headphones.
That said, Dance of Death comes ... if not close, then at least half-way, for similar reasons (here somebody did a comparison of the waveforms of their albums and - surprise surprise - DOD looks almost like a pure block)
EDIT: I know this is an example of mastering, not production as such, buuuuut the producer should be responsible for that as well (and usually is, see the brickwalling of nearly every Rick Rubin-produced album)
Oh yeah true DOD is clippy but then it's got some wonderful songs on it so I probably looked past it