Homosexuality

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Maverick said:
Congrats to Nathalie and Acacia for revealing a bit of their lives. You are who you are, and there's NO SHAME OR PRIDE involved. As long as you're comfortable with yourselves, everything's fine. You are people. You are persons. You are unique, like everyone of us.

This bit of your sentence struck me Mav as exceedingly intelligent and important to point out. Being gay or straight doesn't make you a better or worse person. It's who you are as a character that makes all the difference. In my experience people tend to put gay people in this box where we are either worse than everybody else or better (I suppose whats meant by that is more liberal). This is not true. And I thank you for pointing this out.
 
I'm late to t he discussion, like always, but here're my two cents: I hate the fact that governments are involved in marriage at all!

Love whomever you want, do whatever you like, marry whomever you want. I'm ok with gay marriage, I'm ok with straight marriage, and I really don't see what the big problem is with polygamy. Consenting adults should be allowed to do whatever they want with each other. My big problem is that governments are involved in marriage and relationships AT ALL. The state has no business sanctioning some chosen relationships and not others.

Leave it to churches and other social groups (such as atheist organizations) where participation is voluntary. Catholics, for example, can be against gay marriage all they want, and it's their freedom to do so. They should be allowed to kick people out of their church (a private club) for not following those rules. But they shouldn't try to impose their views on the issue on the rest of society.

The government needs to start treating people equally, regardless of what kind of relationships (or lack thereof) they choose to be in. Stop giving tax breaks to married hetero couples, stop making laws saying that X relationship is less valid than Y. It isn't the government's job to police our bedrooms.

I don't need the government to sanction my love for my fiancé. The reasons we're getting formally married are her religious beliefs  and our desire to show our commitment to one another in a public way. I don't see why I need a permit from the government for that. I doubt a gay couple really needs a government paper to say that they love each other too.

/end Dukey's rant
 
IronDuke said:
I really don't see what the big problem is with polygamy.

you mean besides the fact that in most cases whether it is one man many wives, one woman many husbands, they just have more partners as virtual sex slaves and nothing else? Really, why would you marry more than one person? It is hard enough to keep one person happy, much less 5. the multiple partners take a passive, submissive role of compliance. But yeah, other than that nothing wrong with what consenting adults can do.
 
You're not talking about consenting adults, though.  In the recent FLDS case in Texas, they are forcing 12 year old girls to marry (according to reports, anyway).  This is not consenting.  The fact is that polygamy hasn't generally been attempted in public view with modern equality ideals yet, so we have no real way of knowing.  It has been used by fringe sects of a religion as a tool of oppression (I would argue that oppression of women is the real reason that Joseph Smith entered polygamy into his "religion"), and not really tried in public view.
 
True... I remember only one case on shown on TV (maybe two years ago) of a woman with two "husbands" and they were all pretty happy. Though this was bigamy (not poly) it was working fine, I still would like to see the power relations in that relationship.
 
I believe that there was no evidence that Joseph Smith had more than one wife.  It was more evident when the Mormons moved to Utah, after Joe and his brother were killed.  One of the things that Brigham Young employed, outside of the (then) U. S.

As far as it goes, if 'consenting' adults are happy with multiple husbands/wives, why the hell not.  If they are cool with what they get into, it can be a way to create a strong family.  Picture a line marriage-- the family is not as fragile as only two parents, but has multiple parents to protect and raise the family.  When it comes to people that get along and are secure in their selves and their sexuality, I don't see why multiple people in a relationship is bad.
 
wasted155 said:
I believe that there was no evidence that Joseph Smith had more than one wife.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith%2C_Jr._and_polygamy

Very first sentence (my emphasis):
"Historians widely agree that Joseph Smith, Jr. taught and practiced polygamy."

And before you say "it's Wikipedia, it's unreliable", check the "References" section at the bottom of the article. It appears to be a well-researched, well-cited article.
 
There has been speculation about that since he was in Nauvoo.  The thing is, the 'revelation' didn't become public knowledge (as per wiki) until the 1850's, in Utah.  Also, the family and some friends of J.S. II refute that it took place.  The rub is with the way that Brigham Young viewed the church, vs the way the Smith family viewed it.  The real issue comes down to the Mormon belief in sealing, where one becomes 'married' (or whatever term you want to apply there) to someone that is already dead.  I believe the wiki article states that with 99,5% accuracy, 5 'decendants' of Joe Jr from these marriages were proven to not be, and the other 7 claimants aren't concluded as of yet.  Proof is based on circumstantial evidence. 

Its hard to say, but the thing is, in Nauvoo it wasn't acceptable, but in Utah, it was.
Hmmm.  I'm going to have to read more about this. 
 
I would first like to remark how much I appreciate the well-written, intelligent posts by the open-minded users (for the most part) of this forum before I continue any further with this post. It's comforting that there are both understanding and supportive intellectuals out there of a different sexual orientation than me. Thank you for that my friends. I'm a bisexual male, and have been out of the closet with some of my closest friends for two years now. Each of those friends have been highly supportive of me in that regard, and I am happy to say I've taken another step with you folks today.

I figured I would post because this is obviously a topic of discussion that applies to me immensely, and I should take it upon myself to share my story with you all, and perhaps reach out to those who may be a homosexual or bisexual in the closet. I believe it has been established that sexual orientation is NOT a choice, but rather the contrary; my bisexuality was not a choice. I always presumed that I was a heterosexual male, for I had taken interest in the opposite sex as any heterosexual would. It was not until I hit puberty that I began taking interest in members of the same sex, and I did not understand my feelings at all and it was a difficult behavior to get accustomed to. I started to fall into denial. . . I tried to convince myself it was just a phase. . . . I tried to rationalize the thoughts and urges going through my mind. Then came acceptance. I removed the tourniquet that had been holding back my feelings for men and let them free; in doing this I had become a much happier individual who was pretty content with himself. The next step was to come out, and that was with my best friend, then more friends to come after. I was lucky. . . others in my boat may not be as fortunate and those individuals need to realize that. But do not fear. Do not be ashamed. And do not succumb to the ignorance and/or hostility that may come your way. RESILIENCE my friends: resilience.

I would now like to take the time to offer my two cents in response to Zare's posts. It's a shame that your intelligence falls second to your ignorant, biased views. I don't know you on a personal level, but I do know judging from your posts in this thread your literary skills lead me to believe that you are intelligent, despite the fact that your own personal bias hinders your ability to think logically. I do not agree with you, nor do I think anyone should, though people will and they have that right. It pains me and those like myself to hear that we are immoral, ill, strange, wrong, disgusting . . . the list goes on. I am aware that you did not directly attack homosexuals in such a manner, though you DO claim it's an illness. Whatever, believe what you will. I refuse to make this any more dramatic than it already is, but know that when you want to make a point, make sure your point is valid first.

Thanks again to the open-minded contributions of those who took the time to respond to this thread. I hope this post helped anyone who may still be in the closet; you are you so be you.
 
:ninja:

We are everywhere.

No seriously, I just wanted to take this opportunity to apologize to Forostar who said a similar thing to Mav earlier on (I missed it). So the praise goes to Forostar as well.
 
More fuel to the fire...

The article below may be a bit long for some of you to read in its entirety, but it's worth it. In a nutchell, it simply explains that most animals, essentially the social ones, are commonly bisexual. There's an evolutionary reason for it, and let's not forget that Homo sapiens is but a social animal like any other.

So if "God hates fags", the bastard must hate his whole f'kin' creation!  :D



Bisexual Species: Unorthodox Sex in the Animal Kingdom
Homosexual behavior is common in nature, and it plays an important role in survival

By Emily V. Driscoll (Scientific American)


Two penguins native to Antarctica met one spring day in 1998 in a tank at the Central Park Zoo in midtown Manhattan. They perched atop stones and took turns diving in and out of the clear water below. They entwined necks, called to each other and mated. They then built a nest together to prepare for an egg. But no egg was forthcoming: Roy and Silo were both male.

Robert Gramzay, a keeper at the zoo, watched the chinstrap penguin pair roll a rock into their nest and sit on it, according to newspaper reports. Gramzay found an egg from another pair of penguins that was having difficulty hatching it and slipped it into Roy and Silo’s nest. Roy and Silo took turns warming the egg with their blubbery underbellies until, after 34 days, a female chick pecked her way into the world. Roy and Silo kept the gray, fuzzy chick warm and regurgitated food into her tiny black beak.

Like most animal species, penguins tend to pair with the opposite sex, for the obvious reason. But researchers are finding that same-sex couplings are surprisingly widespread in the animal kingdom. Roy and Silo belong to one of as many as 1,500 species of wild and captive animals that have been observed engaging in homosexual activity. Researchers have seen such same-sex goings-on in both male and female, old and young, and social and solitary creatures and on branches of the evolutionary tree ranging from insects to mammals.

Unlike most humans, however, individual animals generally cannot be classified as gay or straight: an animal that engages in a same-sex flirtation or partnership does not necessarily shun heterosexual encounters. Rather many species seem to have ingrained homosexual tendencies that are a regular part of their society. That is, there are probably no strictly gay critters, just bisexual ones. “Animals don’t do sexual identity. They just do sex,” says sociologist Eric Anderson of the University of Bath in England.

Nevertheless, the study of homosexual activity in diverse species may elucidate the evolutionary origins of such behavior. Researchers are now revealing, for example, that animals may engage in same-sex couplings to diffuse social tensions, to better protect their young or to maintain fecundity when opposite-sex partners are unavailable—or simply because it is fun. These observations suggest to some that bisexuality is a natural state among animals, perhaps Homo sapiens included, despite the sexual-orientation boundaries most people take for granted. “[In humans] the categories of gay and straight are socially constructed,” Anderson says.

What is more, homosexuality among some species, including penguins, appears to be far more common in captivity than in the wild. Captivity, scientists say, may bring out gay behaviors in part because of a scarcity of opposite-sex mates. In addition, an enclosed environment boosts an animal’s stress levels, leading to a greater urge to relieve the stress. Some of the same influences may encourage what some researchers call “situational homosexuality” in humans in same-sex settings such as prisons or sports teams.

Making Peace

Modern studies of animal homosexuality date to the late 19th century with observations on insects and small animals. In 1896, for example, French entomologist Henri Gadeau de Kerville of the Society of Friends of Natural Sciences and the Museum of Rouen published a drawing of two male scarab beetles copulating. Then, during the first half of the 1900s, various investigators described homosexual behavior in baboons, garter snakes and gentoo penguins, among other species. Back then, scientists generally considered homosexual acts among animals to be abnormal. In some cases, they “treated” the animals by, say, castrating them or giving them lobotomies.

At least one early report, however, was more than descriptive, yielding insight into the possible origins of the behavior. In a 1914 lab experiment Gilbert Van Tassel Hamilton, a psychopathologist practicing in Montecito, Calif., reported that same-sex behavior in 20 Japanese macaques and two baboons occurred largely as a way of making peace with would-be foes. In the Journal of Animal Behavior Hamilton observed that females offered sex to the more dominant macaques of the same sex: “homosexual behavior is of relatively frequent occurrence in the female when she is threatened by another female, but it is rarely manifested in response to sexual hunger.” And in males, he penned, “homosexual alliances between mature and immature males may possess a defensive value for immature males, since they insure the assistance of an adult defender in the event of an attack.”

More recently, some researchers studying bonobos (close relatives of the chimpanzee) have come to similar conclusions. Bonobos are highly promiscuous, and about half their sexual activity involves same-sex partners. Female bonobos rub one another’s genitals so often that some scientists have suggested that their genitalia evolved to facilitate this activity. The female bonobo’s clitoris is  “frontally placed, perhaps because selection favored a position maximizing stimulation during the genital-genital rubbing common among females,” wrote behavioral ecologist Marlene Zuk of the University of California, Riverside, in her 2002 book Sexual Selections: What We Can and Can’t Learn about Sex from Animals. Male bonobos have been observed to mount, fondle and even perform oral sex on one another.

Such behavior seems to ease social tensions. In Bonobo: The Forgotten Ape (University of California Press, 1997), Emory University primatologist Frans B. M. de Waal and his co-author photographer Frans Lanting wrote that “when one female has hit a juvenile and the juvenile’s mother has come to its defense, the problem may be resolved by intense GG-rubbing between the two adults.” De Waal has observed hundreds of such incidents, suggesting that these homosexual acts may be a general peacekeeping strategy. “The more homosexuality, the more peaceful the species,” asserts Petter Böckman, an academic adviser at the University of Oslo’s Museum of Natural History in Norway. “Bonobos are peaceful.”

In fact, such acts are so essential to bonobo socialization that they constitute a rite of passage for young females into adulthood. Bonobos live together in groups of about 60 in a matriarchal system. Females leave the group during adolescence and gain admission to another bonobo clan through grooming and sexual encounters with other females. These behaviors promote bonding and give the new recruits benefits such as protection and access to food.

Defended Nest

In some birds, same-sex unions, particularly between males, might have evolved as a parenting strategy to increase the survival of their young. “In black swans, if two males find each other and make a nest, they’ll be very successful at nest making because they are bigger and stronger than a male and female,” Böckman says. In such cases, he says, “having a same-sex partner will actually pay off as a sensible life strategy.”

In other instances, homosexual bonding between female parents can boost the survival of offspring when male-female pairings are not possible. In birds called oystercatchers, intense competition for male mates would leave some females single were it not for polygamous trios. In a study published in 1998 in Nature, zoologist Dik Heg and geneticist Rob van Treuren, both then at the University of Groningen in the Netherlands, observed that roughly 2 percent of oystercatcher breeding groups consist of two females and a male. In some of these families, Heg and van Treuren found, the females tend separate nests and fight over the male, but in others, all three birds watch over a single nest. In the latter case, the females bond by mounting each other as well as the male. The cooperative triangles produce more offspring than the competitive ones, because such nests are better tended and protected from predators.

Such arrangements point to the evolutionary fitness of stable social relationships, whatever their type. Biologist Joan E. Roughgarden of Stanford University believes that evolutionary biologists tend to adhere too strongly to Darwin’s theory of sexual selection and have thus largely overlooked the importance of bonding and friendship to animal societies and the survival of their young.“ [Darwin] equated reproduction with finding a mate rather than paying attention to how the offspring are naturally reared,” Roughgarden says.

Protection of progeny, social bonding and conflict avoidance may not be the only reasons animals naturally come to same-sex relationships. Many animals do it simply “because they want to,” Böckman says. “People view animals as robots who behave as their genes say, but animals have feelings, and they react to those feelings.” He adds that “as long as they feel the urge [for sex], they’ll go for it.”

A recent finding indicates that homosexual behavior may be so common because it is rooted in an animal’s brain wiring—at least in the case of fruit flies. In a study appearing earlier this year in Nature Neuroscience, neuroscientist David E. Featherstone of the University of Illinois at Chicago and his colleagues found that they could switch on homosexual leanings in fruit flies by manipulating a gene for a protein they call “genderblind,” which regulates communication between neurons that secrete and respond to the neurotransmitter glutamate.

Males that carried the mutant genderblind gene—which depressed levels of the protein by about two thirds—were uncharacteristically attracted to the chemical cues exuded by other males. As a result, these mutant males courted and attempted to copulate with other males. The finding suggests that wild fruit flies may be prewired for both heterosexual and homosexual behavior, the authors write, but that the genderblind protein suppresses the glutamate-based circuits that promote homosexual behavior. Such brain architecture may enable same-sex behavior to surface easily, supporting the notion that it might confer an evolutionary advantage in some circumstances.

The Captivity Effect

In some less social species, homosexual behavior is almost unheard of in wild animals but may surface in captivity. Wild koalas, which are mostly solitary, seem to be strictly heterosexual. But in a 2007 study veterinary scientist Clive J. C. Phillips of the University of Queensland in Brisbane, Australia, and his colleagues observed 43 instances of homosexual activity among female koalas living in a same-sex enclosure at the Lone Pine Koala Sanctuary. The captive females shrieked male mating calls and mated with one another, sometimes participating in multiple encounters of up to five koalas. “The behavior in captivity was certainly enhanced in terms of homosexual activity,” Phillips says.

He believes that the females acted this way in part because of stress. Animals often experience stress in enclosed habitats and may engage in homosexual behavior to relieve that tension. A lack of male partners probably also played a role, Phillips suggests. When female koalas are in heat, their ovaries release the sex hormone estrogen, which triggers mating behavior—whether or not males are present. This hardwired urge to copulate, even if expressed with a female partner, might be adaptive. “The homosexual behavior preserves sexual function,” Phillips says, enabling an animal to maintain its reproductive fitness and interest in sexual activity. In males, this benefit is even more obvious: homosexual behavior stimulates the continued production of seminal fluid.

A lack of opposite-sex partners is also thought to help explain the prevalence of homosexuality among penguins in zoos. In addition to several gay penguin couplings in the U.S., 20 same-sex penguin partnerships were formed in 2004 in zoos in Japan. Such behavior “is very rare in penguins’ natural habitats,” says animal ecologist Keisuke Ueda of Rikkyo University in Tokyo. Thus, Ueda speculates that the behavior—which included both male pairings and female couplings—arose as a result of the skewed sex ratios at zoos.

Researchers have found still other reasons for homosexual behavior in domesticated cattle—which is such a common occurrence that farmers and animal breeders have developed terms for it. “Bulling” refers to male pairs mounting, and “going boaring” is its female counterpart. For cows, the behavior is not just a stress reliever. It is a way to signal sexual receptivity. The females mount one another to signal their readiness to mate to the bulls—which, in captivity, may cause a breeder to know when to bring in a suitable opposite-sex partner.

Homosexual mounting is much rarer among cattle in the wild, Phillips asserts, based on his research on gaurs in Malaysia, a wild counterpart to domesticated cattle. “Cattle evolved in the forest, so a visual signal was not going to be useful for them,” he says.

Stress and the greater availability of same-sex partners may similarly contribute to the practice of homosexual acts among self-described heterosexual humans in environments such as the military, jails and sports teams. In a study published this year in the journal Sex Roles, Anderson found that 40 percent of 49 heterosexual former high school football players attending various U.S. universities had had at least one homosexual encounter. These ranged from kissing to oral sex to threesomes that included a woman. In team sports, homosexuality is “no big deal and it increases cohesion among members of that team,” Anderson claims. “It feels good, and [the athletes] bond.”

In stressful same-sex environments such as prisons or a war zone, heterosexuals may engage in homosexual behavior in part to relieve tension. “Homosexuality appears mostly in social species,” Böckman says. “It makes flock life easier, and jail flock life is very difficult.”

Altered Spaces

In recent decades zoo officials have tried to minimize the stresses of captivity by making their enclosures more like animals’ natural habitats. In the 1950s zoo animals lived behind bars in barren enclosures. But since the late 1970s zoo homes have become more hospitable, including more open space, along with plants and murals representative of an animal’s natural habitat. The Association of Zoos and Aquariums (AZA) regulates everything from cage dimensions to animal bedding. The AZA also outlines enrichment activities for captive creatures: for instance, two golden brown Amur leopards at the Staten Island Zoo regularly play with a papier-mâché zebra, an animal they have never seen in the flesh.

Researchers hope such improvements might affect animal behavior, making it more like what occurs in the wild. One possible sign of more hospitable conditions might be a rate of homosexuality more in line with that of wild members of the same species. Some people, however, contest the notion that zookeepers should prevent or discourage homosexual behavior among the animals they care for.

And whereas captivity may engender what appears to be an unnaturally high level of homosexual activity in some animal species, human same-sex environments might bring out normal tendencies that other settings tend to suppress. That is, some experts argue that humans, like some other animals, are naturally bisexual. “We should be calling humans bisexual because this idea of exclusive homosexuality is not accurate of people,” Roughgarden says. “Homosexuality is mixed in with heterosexuality across cultures and history.”

Even Silo the penguin, who had been coupled with Roy for six years, displayed this malleability of sexual orientation. One spring day in 2004 a female chinstrap penguin named Scrappy—a transplant from SeaWorld in San Diego—caught his eye, and he abruptly left Roy for her. Meanwhile Roy and Silo’s “daughter,” Tango, carried on in the tradition of her fathers. Her chosen mate: a female named Tazuni.
 
Now this was a highly interesting read, and tallies quite nicely with what I was saying earlier about some bird species going homosexual when mates of the opposite sex are low in supply (there was an article once in an Austrian newspaper). So, perhaps things aren't as simple (or complicated) as some would like to have it. I particularily found this sentence of interest: “[In humans] the categories of gay and straight are socially constructed,” Anderson says. This one also caught my eye: “The more homosexuality, the more peaceful the species,” asserts Petter Böckman, an academic adviser at the University of Oslo’s Museum of Natural History in Norway. “Bonobos are peaceful.” So maybe this is the answer to world peace that we've been looking for :P.

Thanks Mav for the article, some great stuff in it. :)
 
Natalie said:
Now this was a highly interesting read, and tallies quite nicely with what I was saying earlier about some bird species going homosexual when mates of the opposite sex are low in supply

So birds act like human prison inmates if given the chance? :p
 
Yes.  In an environment in which members of one sex have been deprived, it's only natural that some members of the single sex would take on mating and habitual characteristics of the opposite sex in order to fulfill the societal need for sexual intercourse.

IE, prison butt sex.
 
A horny dog will try to screw your leg if he can't find a female specimen nearby. That speaks for itself - he'll just do anything with anything to fulfill his basic sexual needs which are on the levels of pure instinct. Nothing less, nothing more. Have you ever seen the ejaculation of a male pig? Someone wanted pig sperm or whatever for research, and they had this glove thing that emulates female pig's sexual organ. And yeah, that pig immediately started jumping on the glove...

Go and see that next time you try to compare human sexuality with animal instinct.
 
Actually, the pig has to be trained to do that.  I have friends that work in the pig semen industry (true, and its lucrative).  The pig has to be trained to climb up on a dummy sow, and then one of the collectors has to take care of the pig manually. 

[/tangent]
 
Sometimes, I wonder if the two are one and the same.

No it's not, at least not for me. The closest example i could find would be a difference between a one-night stand and a sexual intercourse with person you love. One night stand : you are both attractive / visually appealing to eachother, and then you have some "fun" without a lot of talking or anything. The other example : you share feelings with that person, and then you share intimacy. This doesn't generally mean that you know that person, she/he might be your girlfriend/boyfriend for a day or two, but if you entered the relationship, there's something there, and the pure emotional burst that you can expect from having sex under those conditions can be really thrilling and a stimulant of itself.

From my experience, one-night stands (which i hate, i've tried them several times in different periods of my life just to see, and reached that conclusion finally) if under certain circumstances, like good atmosphere, sudden surprise act, etc., can be at best...good enough. Good enough means that you don't think afterwards..."meh, i've wasted time", and you think, ok i had a good time. On the other hand, sex with person you love doesn't need to be dynamic, right-timed, or out of the ordinary to be superb. Emotions do their part.

That's the difference. Animals don't experience love, at least not true love and true emotions the way we do. If there is anything close to emotion it's instinct again, like fighting over the female equals "f*ck off, that's my territory". Caring for a partner only comes to pure co-habitation...

Actually, the pig has to be trained to do that.  I have friends that work in the pig semen industry (true, and its lucrative).  The pig has to be trained to climb up on a dummy sow, and then one of the collectors has to take care of the pig manually.

I saw on a documentary. Pig was doing the work it self.

Heh, you have guys that like to be down while having sex and let the girl do the whole job. Your buddy's pigs might be the same  :D
 
Zare said:
No it's not, at least not for me. The closest example i could find would be a difference between a one-night stand and a sexual intercourse with person you love.

Well, sucks to be you. because we are talking about sex with a member of the SAME sex, IE prison but sex, bird homo sex, etc. And you definitely don't need to love someone to have sex with them more than once out of pure lust...
 
My point was simply that in order to fulfill sexual needs, sexuality has quite the bend to it.  I'm not trying to associate animals with love, or human relations with animal relations; the simple point is that in certain social conditions "norms" are quickly altered for many people, just like in certain situations for animals, the expected behaviour changes.

One night stands have nothing to do with it, either.  I was simply pointing out the facts about life in prison, how many men go in, end up engaging in sexual relations with a member of the same sex, get out and never even think about it again, due to the unavailability of his sexual preference.
 
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