Homosexuality

[Onhell]

Re: Homosexualism

Now something a bit more serious.  These last times, we can see on TV informations that in East Europe (I mean Poland for example), religion is strongly coming back in nawadays life.  I saw a report on that subject about 6 months ago and it was young adults in Poland who were talking about that matter and were saying the same things that Zare. I had the feeling it was a report from the middle of the last century.

So you mean bigotry, not religion is coming back and it is actually quite a normal reaction when people feel the status quo 'threatened".

Also, notice this... ok I'll be nice, Zare, hasn't replied to any of our comments which leads me to believe he regrets ever posting what he did, because nobody even remotely shares his point of view...

 

[SinisterMinisterX]

Re: Homosexualism

Onhell: Zare has replied twice to other people's comments. Do try to keep up.


Forostar: LC explained the matter well, but let me phrase it this way... Zare is not spewing hatred or advocating violence. He is displaying ignorance. That's my reason for not closing the thread. If it degenerates into hate speech, it will get closed.

You could say that Zare is expressing bigotry. And yes, this thread comes as close as you can get to rule-breaking without actually getting there. But the attitude of the mods is: let's see how this discussion develops. And since the development so far is to criticize Zare for his bigotry, we see no reason to stop that.

Finally, the rule about deleting racist etc. threads is mainly for spam threads. Even if he's terribly misguided, it appears Zare did mean to start an honest discussion. The intent of the poster is important in these borderline cases, and Zare's intent was right (even if nothing else he said was).


Zare: You say you don't want to be called names. We're not. We have called you ignorant. Your posts provide ample evidence to support that statement as fact. LooseCannon's replies have shown why you are ignorant. Given the morally nauseating content of your post, I think this forum has shown extreme restraint in our replies. I'm sorry if you don't like having your ignorance pointed out, but if the shoe fits, wear it.

You're simply not going to find much sympathy here while you try to convince us that your ignorant bigotry is justified.

 

[Onhell]

Re: Homosexualism

Onhell: Zare has replied twice to other people's comments. Do try to keep up.

That he did... silly me

 

[Onhell]

Re: Homosexualism

I don't think so, and I do believe that regardless of topic, be it race, homosexuality, sexism, by virtue of the points mentioned by the mods the discussion would be allowed as long as it remains civil, and it has.

 

[porcnoz]

Re: Homosexualism

It seems it's allowed to discriminate on this forum.

I didn't really see any discrimination in Zare's posts, he never wrote all homosewuals should be killed.  But it looks like this topic hurts you much.  May I ask you why ?

What Zare thinks, or at least how he exposes it, is a bit ambiguous.  To me, he never takes a strong position.  The best example is about homosexual abilities to be parents.

Zare : From where do you get your informations ?  And, homosexual behaves can be found in other animal species.

So you mean bigotry, not religion is coming back and it is actually quite a normal reaction when people feel the status quo 'threatened".

Call it like you want, many people say so terrible things under cover of religion.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Homosexualism

I'd be curious to see a homosexual's reaction to this.

 

[Genghis Khan]

Re: Homosexualism

I find it unworthy and naive for a Maidenfans forum, to let this go on. I find it rediculous that a topic will be removed, only because of a general thought. Is this a forum of populism?

This is exactly the ROOT cause of Zare's problem.  He has a the people-are-superior-to-individual-rights mentality, in my honest opinion.  As Porcnoz mentioned before, this is common in the former Eastern Block which is going from statism to "the people".  The problem is "the people" to eastern Europe still means that individual rights go by the way side.  Homosexuality happens to be the most talked about form of discrimination today.  This is probably the reason he is focused upon it.  If we were in the 1920s, he'd probably be kindly asking all women to please stay in your kitchens to help raise a better society.  It is ignorance, but like stated before, I do not think it comes from hatred.  However, as I've stated before, this sort of bigotry will lead to hatred and violence because the root cause of it supports those who would violently stop homosexuality.

Forostar, I understand where you are coming from, but as long as the forum's members keep fighting homophobic behaviour, I do not think we're supporting Zare's arguements or providing a pedestal for him.

Here is a recent, brief history of gay pride in Croatia.  Like Forostar said, homosexuals do have certain rights, but are not equal to heterosexual couples.  I've first talked about this under the Maiden song "The Legacy", posted last year.  This Wiki article also has history of homosexuality in the public eye in the post-communist countries.  An excerpt follows.  Notice that in Croatia, only the first gay parade was marred with violence.  This was before gay rights were recognized.

History of Gay Parades in Zagreb, Croatia.

From Wiki:

First Eastern European Pride

The First Eastern European Pride, called The Internationale Pride, was organized to affirm the right to freedom of assembly in Croatia and other Eastern European states, to promote LGBTIQ rights in the region, and to encourage organization of Pride events in areas lacking them. This was also fifth Croatian and fith Zagreb pride.

The international event was held in Zagreb, June 22-25, 2006, and brought together representatives of those Eastern European and Southeastern European countries where the sociopolitical climate is not ripe for the organization of Prides, or where such events are expressly forbidden by the authorities. From 13 countries (including representatives from Kosovo), that participated, only Poland, Slovenia, Croatia, Romania and Latvia have been organizing Prides, and Bosnia and Herzegovina, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Albania, Slovakia and Lithuania have never had Prides before. The attempt to organize such an event in Belgrade, Serbia in 2001, ended in a bloody showdown between the police and the counter-protesters, with the participants heavily beaten up

This Pride event is not only based on regional solidarity but is also jointly organized on the principles of non-violence and human rights standards. [34]

(Read more about first Eastern European Pride on Notable pride events in the article Gay pride parade.)

This is important to me because I was born in Croatia.  For this reason I'm glad Zare's opinions are coming out because I desperately wish to see Croatia join the west as more liberally-oriented country where it counts the most -- human rights.  I think overall things for homosexual people are improving and people who would use violence against homosexuals or any minority for that matter will go underground and face imprisonment.  I agree with LC, ignorance cannot be fought with suppression of speech.

I'd also like to thank everyone for remaining civil and adding important information to this thread.

 

[Onhell]

Re: Homosexualism

Call it like you want, many people say so terrible things under cover of religion.

Call it what it is.

That's your opinion. I can only mention that you're not in charge of this forum. I'm neither, I am commenting on the rules, Croatia:

I find your mention that I'm not in charge as a basis to dismiss my "opinion" rude. I too was commenting on what the mods, not you, are using as the basis for their actions...

 

[Anomica]

Re: Homosexualism

LC, thank you for a very long but well written reply. I believe this is as far as this discussion will go. Zare won't be convinced that he's a bigot and that the views he's expressing is not only outdated but discriminatory.

I suggest this thread should be closed.


By the way, English is not my first language, but shouldn't it be homosexuality, not homosexualism?

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Homosexualism

I have noticed a lot of people going on about Zare's attribute of being Croatian. He's never gotten into that himself, except for one passage mentioning the legal situation in the country. So please, go on about how his views are primitive, backwards, ignorant or whatever, but quit the "other Croatians..." crap. He's not arguing as a Croatian, but as... homophobe or whatever.

 

[porcnoz]

Re: Homosexualism

I have noticed a lot of people going on about Zare's attribute of being Croatian. He's never gotten into that himself, except for one passage mentioning the legal situation in the country. So please, go on about how his views are primitive, backwards, ignorant or whatever, but quit the "other Croatians..." crap. He's not arguing as a Croatian, but as... homophobe or whatever.

We had the discussion about this on our local forums, and the people there agree with me completely (...)

What I understand from this : The forums Zare's talking about are croatians, so a majority of croatians would think the same than him about homosexuality.

 

[Genghis Khan]

Re: Homosexualism

Perhaps I should make clear that I think that changing the ideas of Zare (and many other people who think homosexuality is strange) can be a process of years. Do we want this topic open, until he changes his mind?

It might take years or a lifetime.  But everything counts.  I do not read/write here with the hope to change his mind, but to get my opinions out there.  People have started out hating gays and changed their minds.  If they're confronted by people like us, some, a few, or just one person will change their mind. 

@ Perun: Zare is definitely talking as a Croatian.  He HAS made that clear, hence I and others bring this forth. 

What I understand from this : The forums Zare's talking about are croatians, so a majority of croatians would think the same than him about homosexuality.

You don't have proof.  The Wiki article I quoted would suggest otherwise.

---

By the way, English is not my first language, but shouldn't it be homosexuality, not homosexualism?

You're right.

 

[porcnoz]

Re: Homosexualism

You don't have proof.  The Wiki article I quoted would suggest otherwise.

---

The "What I understand from this" is very important in the sentence actually.  I didn't write that a majority of croatians are homophobes, and I hope it's the opposite.

I suggest this thread should be closed.

I do too.

 

[IronDuke]

Re: Homosexualism

If you're against gay marriage, don't marry a gay person. But just because you don't like something morally doesn't mean you can force your view on it upon everyone else.
I, for instance, think Christianity is evil, putrid, and one of the most dreadful forces facing humanity in the 21st century. However, I don't think I have the right to tell people that they can't go to church. They can do whatever they want so long as it doesn't hurt me, and vice versa.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Homosexualism

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Homosexualism

I didn't particularly want to revive this old topic where some have exposed rather narrow-minded views, but I didn't either want to start a new topic about the article below. It simply highlights a biological fact about homosexuals, also demonstrating that this "condition" is not a disease or some kind of abnormality.

---

Gay men, straight women share brain detail: report

LONDON (Reuters) - Gay men and straight women share some characteristics in the area of the brain responsible for emotion, mood and anxiety, researchers said on Monday in a study highlighting the potential biological underpinning of sexuality.

Brain scans also showed the same symmetry among lesbians and straight men, the researchers wrote in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

"The observations cannot be easily attributed to perception or behavior," the researchers from Sweden's Karolinska Institute wrote. "Whether they may relate to processes laid down during the fetal or postnatal development is an open question."

A number of studies have looked at the roles genetic, biological and environmental factors play in sexual orientation but little evidence exists that any plays an all-important role. Many scientists believe both nature and nurture play a part.

Brain scans of 90 volunteers showed that the brains of heterosexual men and homosexual women were slightly asymmetric with the right hemisphere slightly larger than the left, Ivanka Savic and Pers Lindstrom wrote. The brains of gay men and heterosexual women were not.

Then they measured blood flow to the amygdala -- the area key for the "fight-or-flight" response -- and found it was wired in a similar fashion in gay men and heterosexual women as well as lesbians and heterosexual men.

The researchers added that the study cannot say whether the differences in brain shape are inherited or due to exposure to hormones such as testosterone in the womb and if they are responsible for sexual orientation.

But this is something they plan to look at in a further study of newborn babies to see if it can help predict future sexual orientation.

"These observations motivate more extensive investigations of larger study groups and prompt for a better understanding of the neurobiology of homosexuality," they wrote.

Source: Michael Kahn - Reuters

 

[Natalie]

Re: Homosexualism

I'd be curious to see a homosexual's reaction to this.

Your wish is my command, Perun.

I am a lesbian. And upon reading the opening post by Zare, all I felt was sadness that someone should take so much effort in putting across and trying to convince others of the validity of extremely narrow minded views. On the other hand, I'm flattered that an obviously intolerant straight man should take so much of his time to write out his thoughts on the matter as well as to do some fairly decent research. It's quite strange, but the views that Zare professes are much like my mother's on the subject and what LC and others have responded are extremely sound and open minded arguments which I'll take care to use the day I come out to her (not in the near future I dare say).

The thing I find the most interesting is the argument about whether being gay is a choice or not. Naturally (and I use this word consciously) I have many gay friends in college and this is a common subject of discussion. There is such a thing as the Kinsey scale, that, while perhaps too simplistic, offers some form of answer to this question. Human beings are complicated creatures and putting us into boxes of black and white doesn't work in any context, even sexuality. The Kinsey scale marks individuals on a scale from 1 to 10 with 1 displaying a very straight preference , 5 bisexual, and 10 gay. The other numbers in between mark how far away from each extreme you are. This is different for both sexes, especially since for women, their sexuality is more fluid and in western society there is a level of intimacy between women that is more accepted. As a simplistic example lets take me. I consider myself about a 9.5 on the scale. Certainly if someone offered me a pill that would change my sexuality I'd be tempted just because it is so damned hard to live in society as a homosexual. And I feel its mainly society to blame for extreme unhappiness amongst gay people, because society tends to take Zare's position about it (especially the abnormal bit). On the other hand, if I had the choice I probably wouldn't take that pill.

Speaking of natural or not, there are several examples in nature (exotic fish, certain species of birds) that display homosexual tendencies, especial when there is a shortage of males. Which just goes to show how fluid and ambiguous the idea of gender and gender identity is.

What would interest me, is what Zare would say to the question of the transsexuals. So, this is to you Zare: What do you think about those who change their gender or dress and behave completely as the opposite sex?

P.S. This is by no means an example of an average homosexual reaction to this type of post. Most that I would know would quickly dismiss it as hatecrime speech or write a treatise to repudiate every single word of Zare's post, making it a reply to rival even LC's famously long ones. I don't because I feel that everyone who has replied has said something valid and tolerant which fills me with gratitude that I know you.

P.P.S Last and not least, we should strive to create a community of people in this world that is not based on hatred or fear, but on love. And in this spirit I think it is good that this discussion has been allowed to continue because understanding and tolerance begins with dialogue and obviously this is a conversation that needs to be had.

 

[Acacia]

Re: Homosexualism

There is such a thing as the Kinsey scale, that, while perhaps too simplistic, offers some form of answer to this question.

Interestingly enough, one of Kinsey's books, Sexual Behavior in the Human Male, published 1948, also known as The Kinsley Report (the other one is Sexual Behavior in the Human Female), has been listed as the fourth most harmful book of the 19th and 20th centuries. The list, put together by a conservative paper Human Events, includes The Communist Manifesto, Mein Kampf and Das Kapital.

 

[Anonymous]

Re: Homosexualism

The list, put together by a conservative paper Human Events, includes The Communist Manifesto, Mein Kampf and Das Kapital.

Does it contain the Torah, the Bible and the Qur'an? Now these ones are pretty harmful when taken seriously!

 

[LooseCannon]

*facepalm*

Human Events is not considered a critical resource.  It's like taking a Top 10 list from Jay Leno and declaring it fact.

Certainly, these books (let's post the whole list) have had a major impact on the world.  But no book alone is harmful.  It is the interpretations of such by mankind that is hazardous.  What's going on in this list is adding three books that have been universally interpreted as the reason for harm and then adding a bunch of books that a certain class of people dislike.

I fail to see how The Feminine Mystique or Sexual Behavior in the Human Male have harmed mankind...except for encouraging women to work and encouraging homosexuals to be proud of who they are instead of hiding.