UKIP are a motley assortment of people who collectively are anti-everything, but worryingly, they are gaining ground, especially among disillusioned Conservative voters.
European Politics
- Thread starter Forostar
- Start date
The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
They're not the government, at least. Our goverment has the support of at least %50 of the people in the country. Disgraceful.
bearfan
Ancient Mariner
Nice .....
President Obama's top diplomat to Europe has been caught on tape saying “F--k the EU.”
The conversation between Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and U.S. Ambassador to the Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt was anonymously leaked on YouTube.
Nuland and Pyatt are not identified on the recording, but the tape appears to be genuine.
Nuland is a former spokeswoman for the State Department, and her voice can be recognized on the tape. The State Department has not denied that the voices are those of Nuland and Pyatt.
It’s not clear who recorded or leaked the call, though speculation has immediately fallen on Moscow.
In the leaked telephone call, first reported by the Kyiv Post, Nuland sharply criticizes the European Union's handling of the Ukraine crisis and lays out the administration’s desired outcome for the crisis.
Nuland’s criticism of the EU comes in the context of praising United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki-moon for picking an envoy to deal with the political crisis.
At least four people have been killed in protests that have rocked the ex-Soviet republic since President Viktor Yanukovych turned down an association agreement with the EU late last year in favor of closer ties with Russia.
Nuland argues that the U.N. envoy will “help glue this thing and to have the U.N. glue it. And you know, f--k the EU,” she adds.
“Exactly,” Pyatt can be heard replying. “And I think we got to do something to make it stick together, because you can be sure that if it does start to gain altitude the Russians will be working behind the scenes to torpedo it.”
The two also discuss how to achieve the Obama administration's preferred outcome.
Nuland calls former heavyweight championship boxer Vitali Klitschko the “top dog” among opposition leaders but suggests he shouldn't be given a top role in a new government. She favors fellow opposition leader Arseniy Yatsenyuk.
“I think Yats [Yatsenyuk] is the guy who’s got the economic experience, the governing experience,” Nuland says. “What he needs is Klitsch [Klitschko] and [Oleh] Tyahnybok on the outside. He needs to be talking to them four times a week, you know. I just think Klitsch going in, he’s going to be at that level, working for Yatsenyuk, it’s just not going to work.”
Pyatt agrees.
“Let me work on Klitschko,” he can be heard saying, “and I think we should get a Western personality to come out here (to Ukraine) and midwife this thing.”
Yanukovych offered to make Klitschko a deputy prime minister and fellow opposition leader Arseniy Yatsenyuk the prime minister late last month as a way out of the crisis, but both men refused — they're demanding Yatsenyuk's resignation and fresh presidential elections.
The conversation between Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and U.S. Ambassador to the Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt was anonymously leaked on YouTube.
Nuland and Pyatt are not identified on the recording, but the tape appears to be genuine.
Nuland is a former spokeswoman for the State Department, and her voice can be recognized on the tape. The State Department has not denied that the voices are those of Nuland and Pyatt.
It’s not clear who recorded or leaked the call, though speculation has immediately fallen on Moscow.
In the leaked telephone call, first reported by the Kyiv Post, Nuland sharply criticizes the European Union's handling of the Ukraine crisis and lays out the administration’s desired outcome for the crisis.
Nuland’s criticism of the EU comes in the context of praising United Nations Secretary General Ban Ki-moon for picking an envoy to deal with the political crisis.
At least four people have been killed in protests that have rocked the ex-Soviet republic since President Viktor Yanukovych turned down an association agreement with the EU late last year in favor of closer ties with Russia.
Nuland argues that the U.N. envoy will “help glue this thing and to have the U.N. glue it. And you know, f--k the EU,” she adds.
“Exactly,” Pyatt can be heard replying. “And I think we got to do something to make it stick together, because you can be sure that if it does start to gain altitude the Russians will be working behind the scenes to torpedo it.”
The two also discuss how to achieve the Obama administration's preferred outcome.
Nuland calls former heavyweight championship boxer Vitali Klitschko the “top dog” among opposition leaders but suggests he shouldn't be given a top role in a new government. She favors fellow opposition leader Arseniy Yatsenyuk.
“I think Yats [Yatsenyuk] is the guy who’s got the economic experience, the governing experience,” Nuland says. “What he needs is Klitsch [Klitschko] and [Oleh] Tyahnybok on the outside. He needs to be talking to them four times a week, you know. I just think Klitsch going in, he’s going to be at that level, working for Yatsenyuk, it’s just not going to work.”
Pyatt agrees.
“Let me work on Klitschko,” he can be heard saying, “and I think we should get a Western personality to come out here (to Ukraine) and midwife this thing.”
Yanukovych offered to make Klitschko a deputy prime minister and fellow opposition leader Arseniy Yatsenyuk the prime minister late last month as a way out of the crisis, but both men refused — they're demanding Yatsenyuk's resignation and fresh presidential elections.
Black Wizard
Pleb Hunter
George Osborne, the Chancellor, has just announced that an independent Scotland will not be allowed to keep the pound. This has, predictably, been described as "bullying" by the SNP but it does leave the Yes campaign in a very difficult position. Membership of the EU is clouded in uncertainty for an independent Scotland and the Euro hasn't exactly been the most stable currency in recent years. Then there's the option of starting a new currency but that must be extremely dangerous as well. It would also be extremely ridiculous to have coins with Nessie on the back.
The Yes campaign seemed to have assumed that we'd keep the pound but now that it's been denied to them they'll use it as an example of why we should break away. I think keeping the pound would have been the best option for the country but I can't say I'm disappointed by this morning's announcement as it serves as a setback to the Yes campaign and ultimately if Scotland walks away from the union then we won't deserve to keep the pound.
There are still a lot of big questions to be answered, such as what happens to the BBC, the armed forces, state pensions and membership of NATO and the EU. The answer to the currency question has been a negative one so I expect that the answers to the other major questions will be negative as well. However, there is one particular question that I would like to know the answer to: what happens to the careers of the SNP leadership in the likely event that independence is rejected?
The Yes campaign seemed to have assumed that we'd keep the pound but now that it's been denied to them they'll use it as an example of why we should break away. I think keeping the pound would have been the best option for the country but I can't say I'm disappointed by this morning's announcement as it serves as a setback to the Yes campaign and ultimately if Scotland walks away from the union then we won't deserve to keep the pound.
There are still a lot of big questions to be answered, such as what happens to the BBC, the armed forces, state pensions and membership of NATO and the EU. The answer to the currency question has been a negative one so I expect that the answers to the other major questions will be negative as well. However, there is one particular question that I would like to know the answer to: what happens to the careers of the SNP leadership in the likely event that independence is rejected?
This just goes to show how irrational and ideological the campaign is. If Scotland wants full independence, there is no reason why the UK should let them keep using the pound. A united currency without a united government is an idiotic thing to do, and the UK was wise to stay out of that one the first time. Moreover, it says volumes about the arrogance and egoism of the SNP campaign, to have an independent country and let others pay for it. In other words, there is actually no proper reason to have an independent Scotland other than retaliation for something that happened 300 years ago.
"Would you like chips with your haggis?"
"Would you like chips with your haggis?"
Except maybe putting the interests of Scotland ahead of those of a South East England-centric Government.
Black Wizard
Pleb Hunter
Those are exactly my thoughts Perun. One of the nationalist arguments is that an independent Scotland would not have be under the oppressive rule of a Tory government that we didn't vote for but to me that shows that the nationalists have a chip on their collective shoulder and that they're running away from the perceived problem rather than tackling it. The anti-Tory sentiment in Scotland originates from Margaret Thatcher's Poll Tax policy which was trialled in Scotland more than 20 years ago. I haven't a clue what poll tax was but I know a lot of people were very angry about it and it pretty much wiped out the Conservative representation in Scotland. However, that was 20 years ago and I think that it's time for people to get over it and accept that the Conservatives, and Westminster in general, aren't anti-Scotland in any way. I accept that the Tories remain out of touch with Scottish voters and could try a lot harder to re-establish themselves up here but the perception that they're anti-Scottish is unfair.
Then there's the issue of the UK being London-centric. This is true. Most of the power and money is based in London but I don't see why that means the country is being run poorly or unfairly. If anyone genuinely feels this is a serious issue that needs to be changed then I think it would be more productive to campaign for reforms rather than independence. Running away from the London-centric issue won't solve the problem. Yes, it might give 5 million people "freedom" from London's tyrannical rule but the wider issue that affects everyone in the UK will still be there. Economic imbalances between the north and south of England will still exist and people who live in parts of the UK that don't vote Conservative will still have policies dictated to them by a Conservative government. For example, voters in Northern Ireland have absolutely no say in who the ruling party in Westminster will be yet they are still taxed by London. The situation in Northern Ireland is completely different of course and the Labour and Conservative parties don't run for election in Northern Irish seats, then there's the Republicans who run for election but don't turn up to parliament because they don't recognize it's rule in Northern Ireland.
Ultimately the issue with the Tories and being part of a nation centred on London should be debated by everyone in the United Kingdom and not just Scotland. Breaking away for these reasons is little more than running away from the issue and abandoning those who feel the same way. It's as if the nationalists feel that Scottish people are somehow superior and more important to the rest of the UK.
Then there's the issue of the UK being London-centric. This is true. Most of the power and money is based in London but I don't see why that means the country is being run poorly or unfairly. If anyone genuinely feels this is a serious issue that needs to be changed then I think it would be more productive to campaign for reforms rather than independence. Running away from the London-centric issue won't solve the problem. Yes, it might give 5 million people "freedom" from London's tyrannical rule but the wider issue that affects everyone in the UK will still be there. Economic imbalances between the north and south of England will still exist and people who live in parts of the UK that don't vote Conservative will still have policies dictated to them by a Conservative government. For example, voters in Northern Ireland have absolutely no say in who the ruling party in Westminster will be yet they are still taxed by London. The situation in Northern Ireland is completely different of course and the Labour and Conservative parties don't run for election in Northern Irish seats, then there's the Republicans who run for election but don't turn up to parliament because they don't recognize it's rule in Northern Ireland.
Ultimately the issue with the Tories and being part of a nation centred on London should be debated by everyone in the United Kingdom and not just Scotland. Breaking away for these reasons is little more than running away from the issue and abandoning those who feel the same way. It's as if the nationalists feel that Scottish people are somehow superior and more important to the rest of the UK.
I just have to say that there's a lot of parallels between the Scottish independence movement and the Quebec independence movement. Quebecois wanted to keep Canadian passports, military protection, dollar, and the like, while getting a vote at the UN, becoming an independent signatory to NAFTA (which was in negotiation during the last referendum), NATO, etc. I recall the Americans were opposed to it because they were looking at it as Canada "double-dipping" in international bodies (which really goes to show that the USA doesn't understand Canadian politics).
Anyway, I point this out because both the Scottish and the Quebecois seem to want their cake and want to eat it too. The very declaration that an independent Scotland would require a new currency, be it the Euro or a homemade solution (personally, I favour calling it the Scotty), and the fact that such a thing hurts the yes campaign, indicated that it's not a situation where Scottish people really want to make a go of it on their own. And I can appreciate the difference. Sometimes it's hard to be a nation within a country, especially in Europe, where such things have led to dissolutions of countries recently. But it is entirely possible to do.
Scotland and England have been in a union for four hundred years, give or take a James. But living as I do in an area that is highly influenced by Scotland, I can tell you two things: 1) the Scottish national heritage is a proud international one that hasn't diminished as a result of the Union, and 2) that if Scotland were to become independent, those ties with the rest of the world, in places like Nova Scotia, New Zealand, and Australia, would be highly damaged. I think that it's harder to tell from the inside, but man, Scotland? It's not a place forgotten or overshadowed by the Union.
Black Wizard
Pleb Hunter
It's interesting that you've drawn parallels between Scotland and Quebec because one Canadian journalist has pointed out the main differences:
"In Quebec, the economic argument is nominal. The overriding message for independence since the 1960s has been that statehood is necessary to preserve the French language, culture and identity."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-25844448
Officially the main argument in favour of Scottish independence is the economy but I fail to see how it would be strengthened if we separated from a country which is both politically and economically one of the world's most powerful countries. But that's the official message and I think that that nationalism has its roots in Braveheart-type patriotism and a fairly substantial chip on the shoulder (probably deep fried!)
That article I linked to looks at views of Scotland's referendum around the world. In short nobody really cares. The Indians know who Andy Murray and Sean Connery are but they haven't heard of Alex Salmond and have only seen him on TV waving the saltire behind David Cameron at Wimbledon last year. The Chinese just don't give a shit and the Argentinians hope that it will help them regain the Falkland Islands. (But fuck Argentina, and the Falklands are totally different.) I can't see Vladimir Putin visiting Edinburgh any time soon to have some major meeting about the world's economy with Alex Salmond and the First Minister is totally delusional about how important Scotland would be in the world.
I don't think that Scotland's culture or heritage has been diminished by being part of the union. In fact being part of the United Kingdom and the British Empire has probably helped to raise awareness of and maintain our culture and heritage with places like Nova Scotia in Canada, Perth in Australia, and Invercargill and Dunedin in New Zealand.
"In Quebec, the economic argument is nominal. The overriding message for independence since the 1960s has been that statehood is necessary to preserve the French language, culture and identity."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-25844448
Officially the main argument in favour of Scottish independence is the economy but I fail to see how it would be strengthened if we separated from a country which is both politically and economically one of the world's most powerful countries. But that's the official message and I think that that nationalism has its roots in Braveheart-type patriotism and a fairly substantial chip on the shoulder (probably deep fried!)
That article I linked to looks at views of Scotland's referendum around the world. In short nobody really cares. The Indians know who Andy Murray and Sean Connery are but they haven't heard of Alex Salmond and have only seen him on TV waving the saltire behind David Cameron at Wimbledon last year. The Chinese just don't give a shit and the Argentinians hope that it will help them regain the Falkland Islands. (But fuck Argentina, and the Falklands are totally different.) I can't see Vladimir Putin visiting Edinburgh any time soon to have some major meeting about the world's economy with Alex Salmond and the First Minister is totally delusional about how important Scotland would be in the world.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. The first king of the United Kingdom of Great Britain was Scottish, a James. Scotland has always played an important role in the development of the United Kingdom and the British Empire. The first Prime Minister of Canada was a Scot, as pointed out by the governor of the Bank of England who himself is a Hoser. There was an independence campaigner on the BBC's Question Time program a few weeks ago who referred to the British Empire as the "English Empire" (there's that chip again) which is a very unpatriotic view to take as he ignored Scotland's contribution to the British Empire.
I don't think that Scotland's culture or heritage has been diminished by being part of the union. In fact being part of the United Kingdom and the British Empire has probably helped to raise awareness of and maintain our culture and heritage with places like Nova Scotia in Canada, Perth in Australia, and Invercargill and Dunedin in New Zealand.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Do you also fail to see that the UK's relation with the EU hasn't become better over the last years? This is certainly a relation that has to do with politics and economy.
Scotland does well in Europe and can stand on its own.
Top 10 export destinations, 2011
Destination Value
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Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Do you also fail to see that the UK's relation with the EU hasn't become better over the last years? This is certainly a relation that has to do with politics and economy.
Scotland does well in Europe and can stand on its own.
Top 10 export destinations, 2011
Destination Value
United States£3.5 billion
Netherlands£2.7 billion
France£1.9 billion
Germany£1.4 billion
Belgium£1 billion
Republic of Ireland£ 0.8 billion
Norway£ 0.8 billion
Spain£0.7 billion
Switzerland£0.6 billion
Italy£0.6 billion
I'm sorry, but export figures are not a support of the statement highlighted in red. An economy should not be based entirely on exports if you want the country to do well. They're beautiful figures, but what they mean is basically how much a country can produce cheaply to sell at cheaper prices on the world market. I sure hope for the Scottish people that an independent Scotland would not be so inhumane as to create such an economy.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
There have been more countries that wanted to be independent and became independent. It can happen that such changes don't happen at the same time for every country.
Black Wizard
Pleb Hunter
So we free ourselves from the shackles of London and sell our souls to Brussels like the Irish did? I'll stick with London.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
What are your criteria to do well? I showed these figured to show that Scotland has stronger economical relations with Europe than with North America.
Of course export isn't everything to stand well on their own, but does the rest look bleak?
That has nothing to do with the statement you quoted. Also: independence, independence, independence. Someone just has to scream the word and it will have hopeless romantics come up with arguments of historical justice and spiritual liberty. I still have not heard a single rational argument from the SNP campaign. These are not times for dreamers, but for people who have a sober look at reality and a clue of what's best for the people.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Ireland are doing very fine at the moment.
(You haven't heard the whole radio thing by the way)