European Politics
- Thread starter Forostar
- Start date
srfc
Ancient Mariner
At the moment, the most likely outcome is an FF and FG coalition, which makes sense from a policy viewpoint, but in political terms could be seismic. For a 100 years they have been bitter rivals, so if such a government fails there would be massive recrimination from within both parties But what if it was to succeed? Could they merge?
Black Wizard
Pleb Hunter
Such a coalition or a merger would probably boost Sinn Feinn's narrative that many people see them as the same party and they'd claim it as a stitch up against democracy. It could be a risky move that would have negative impacts on both parties, but a possible positive is that they could function as the one centre to centre-right party and watch all the left wing parties knock lumps out of each other, much like the Conservative Party has done here. I don't know anything like enough to know how successful that might be.
A colleague who works in Ireland (but is English) was visiting last week and described the election result as "an absolute disaster". He reckons that Sinn Feinn will be unable to form a government and there will be another general election. Re-running the election would surely be the ideal scenario for Sinn Feinn as they would put forward the maximum number of candidates possible and win more seats. The other two main parties might want to avoid that at all costs, even if it means letting the left wing parties form a SF-led coalition which might collapse at any moment.
D
Deleted member 7164
Guest
Black Wizard
Pleb Hunter
So how shit is the Venezuelan Navy if it gets sunk by a unarmed cruise ship full of pensioners?
D
Deleted member 7164
Guest
It is very shit, however this wasn't the case here...the cruise ship is polar expedition thing and has an icebreaker hull. And patrol craft, like patrol craft, is probably tin and plastic. And the patrol craft hit the bow bulb, no less. You might imagine what that ram looked like.
Not even a NATO/Russian/Chinese destroyer would fare well in that kind of a scenario.
Not even a NATO/Russian/Chinese destroyer would fare well in that kind of a scenario.
Splat.
Black Wizard
Pleb Hunter
In all of the chaos over the last couple of months it was easy to forget that the Labour Party in the UK has been going through a leadership contest after Jeremy Corbyn announced his resignation following his catastrophic and humiliating defeat in the December General Election. He has been replaced by Sir Keir Starmer who comfortably won the contest and was the Shadow Brexit Secretary. Starmer seems like a decent guy and has the experience and intellect to be a good opposition leader and potential Prime Minister. Part of the reason we were in such turmoil for the last couple of years is that Jeremy Corbyn was a weak and incompetent leader. I am glad to finally see the back of him so that we might finally have a proper opposition in parliament. I am no Labour voter but I am glad to see the party membership has seen sense for a change and voted for a potential Prime Minister who might be able to do his job properly.
Black Wizard
Pleb Hunter
A bullshit accusation which I will now report!
The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
It was too overreaching economically and contained far too many hollow left-wing populist promises. I'd also say Corbyn was more than just weak and incompetent. He was sympathetic toward too many problematic figures. The Castros and Maduros of the world aside, laying a wreath at the funeral of a Black September member, at a ceremony with Black September members present is insane. Can't really chalk it up to a simple mistake either as he has also praised Hamas on multiple occasions and endorsed the works of anti-Semites.
From the Labor angle, they basically missed out on the opportunity to attract the anti-Brexit vote against Boris by having a leader that himself wouldn't commit to the EU. They needed someone further left than the Blair/Brown era, but not as far left as Corbyn. They needed an Ed Miliband with charisma, essentially.
Last edited:
Black Wizard
Pleb Hunter
He was present but not participating!
He also had some strange friendships with Sinn Feinn who, at the time, were the political wing of the IRA. I don't think he ever intended to become party leader or considered becoming Prime Minister when he associated himself with these people. After Ed Miliband stepped down he was a reluctant candidate nominated out of sympathy. What a terrible idea that was.
Ed Miliband was seen by many people as being too similar to David Cameron I think. Posh and privately educated, it wasn't really clear what he stood for. That was another example of Labour members picking the wrong leader. In 2010, the MPs preferred his brother David and in 2015 the MPs preferred Andy Burnham (who is no Manchester Metropolitan Mayor) over JC.
Jeremy's brother is also a fucking nutjob. A climate sceptic and Covid19-denier: https://twitter.com/Piers_Corbyn
The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
That sort of sentiment always drives me nuts. He isn't "one of us" so we shouldn't elect him, he is "one of us" so we should elect him. That sentiment is where democracy goes to die, unsubstantiated decision making.
Ed Miliband seemed like he meant well to me, just didn't have the ability to communicate his messages properly, which resulted in him failing to gain the confidence of the voters. His brother probably would've been the better choice.
I agree with you on this - it shouldn't be decisive for the voter. On the other hand, it is a problem that politics is becoming more and more elitist. In Germany, many MPs came from the working class in the post-war decades, both in the conservative and social democratic parties. But now, virtually all of them are middle or upper class academics with doctoral degrees, even in the socialist wing. There is very little first-hand knowledge of what life is like for the poorer parts of society, and people notice. This may play into the success of the "one of us" branding.
The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
Even the most working class-oriented movements have always been led by educated middle class or upper class people. It just comes with the territory, educated middle class or upper class people tend to have more in their arsenal on economic and social issues and are more likely to shift public opinion. When you think about it, all "working class revolutions" have been led by bourgeoise individuals. Working class people, as unfortunate as it may be, tend to be less engaged politically, and also less informed - which pushes them toward having limited insight into the candidates - so they simply go with the "one of us" thing, and many times the person isn't actually "one of them", or is one of them, but provides absolutely no value to them. How many times have we seen a person of working class origin who espouses laissez-faire capitalist policies be picked by working class people over a person of middle class-upper class origin who espouses social democratic views? It tends to be a very shallow approach, not a calculated one.
I do agree that there should be more variety in representation, but it's an issue that is two-fold. Parties may be less enthusiastic about a working class candidate with experience due to the lack of versatility in knowledge, and, as I mentioned before, working class people tend to be less politically engaged and far less politically involved. The type of working class person who becomes engaged politically is usually an educated one, which is rarer compared to middle class or upper class people, and the type of working class person who becomes involved politically is usually involved in another NGO or political organization, e.g. a labor union. I think it's possible that the decreased representation may have a tie to decreased involvement in such organizations.
Magnus
Pica Serdica
Onhell
Infinite Dreamer
One can be "middle class" and still be a proletariat, don't forget that. So not all working class revolutions have been led by Bourgeoise. Marx was very clear that whether you are a lawyer, dentist, carpenter or teacher, as long as you are someone's bitch, you're a proletariat. Just because one drives a Lexus and the other rides the bus doesn't mean they are in different classes.
What Marx get criticised on a lot, and what you seem to be driving at, is that for a revolution to be successful the proletariat needs help from the petit bourgeoise. This is very clear in both the Mexican Independence and the Mexican Revolution. It wasn't until the petit Bs agreed to a deal with the proletariat (in both cases) that the conflict ended. Not surprisingly in favor of the new Bourgeoise.
The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
The term "Bourgeoisie" isn't necessarily Marxian in usage, you have made a mistake in assuming I was referring to it in Marxian terms. The power relations way of defining the bourgeoisie is strictly Marxian. In the original sense of the term, upper middle class people are a part of the bourgeoisie, and that was my usage of the term. It wouldn't really make sense otherwise, considering the context of my post was working class people favoring candidates of working class backgrounds. The power relations way of defining the bourgeoisie isn't applicable in this context.
Black Wizard
Pleb Hunter
You know when you hear or read a word so many times in a short space of time that it starts to feel weird and looses all meaning? I'm getting that with "bourgeoisie" right now.
The Flash
Dennis Wilcock did 9/11
You'll never be able to maintain a discussion with a Marxist or a Marx-influenced thinker, then, because that's a regular fixture of Marxist rhetoric.