European Politics

The Flash said:
The term "Bourgeoisie" isn't necessarily Marxian in usage, you have made a mistake in assuming I was referring to it in Marxian terms. The power relations way of defining the bourgeoisie is strictly Marxian. In the original sense of the term, upper middle class people are a part of the bourgeoisie, and that was my usage of the term. It wouldn't really make sense otherwise, considering the context of my post was working class people favoring candidates of working class backgrounds. The power relations way of defining the bourgeoisie isn't applicable in this context.
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Few things retain their original intent or meaning. Liberal and conservative no longer hold the same meaning. Gay no longer holds the same meaning it did from 60 years ago. So you can say you're using the "original" meaning or sense of Bourgeoisie, but it has changed. By your definition I would be bourgeoisie for merely having a college education and a white collar job. But I'm not. I don't own any means of production nor do I hold ANY financial influence in society nor do I influence government through financial means. I'm a proletariat, pure and simple. So are most people.
 
Onhell said:
Few things retain their original intent or meaning. Liberal and conservative no longer hold the same meaning. Gay no longer holds the same meaning it did from 60 years ago. So you can say you're using the "original" meaning or sense of Bourgeoisie, but it has changed. By your definition I would be bourgeoisie for merely having a college education and a white collar job. But I'm not. I don't own any means of production nor do I hold ANY financial influence in society nor do I influence government through financial means. I'm a proletariat, pure and simple. So are most people.
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You are mistaken. The term bourgeoisie still is not strictly Marxian, the examples you've given are false equivalencies. You hold the Marxian definition to be the only definition in use and arguing from that angle, but it's not the angle that I'm coming from, neither is it relevant to the discussion at hand. You might uphold or only be familiar with the Marxian definition, but to think it's the only way the term is currently used in political rhetoric is simply false. Not sure why you kept going on about this anyway, it was already explained to you that the term was not used in the way you thought it was, and that your response resulted from a misinterpretation. You can't criticise something that wasn't said on Marxist grounds in a way that interprets it to have been said on Marxist grounds. That being said, and acknowledging that the topic at hand has been transformed entirely, I'll expand on your takes.

"I don't own any means of production nor do I hold ANY financial influence in society nor do I influence government through financial means. I'm a proletariat, pure and simple." this is an entirely Marxian way of looking at society - you can't expect everyone else to adhere to the same perspective. It's flagrantly false anyway, you have plenty of financial influence in society, to look at it in relative terms is a very convenient way of dismissing individual responsibility with regard to your impact on the economy.

I disagree with the Marxian definition regardless. A doctor who arrives at home driving an Audi A7, relaxes in the evening by drinking Johnnie Walker Black Label and listening to his record collection on Hi-Fi audio equipment, and a janitor who works at the same hospital, arrives home by taking the bus, drinks Coca-Cola and watches his 14'' TV are not in the same social class simply because they are both workers who are paid a wage. Marx's definition of the bourgeoisie and the proletariat are strictly tied to his political philosophy, it doesn't exist in vacuum. This is one reason I've always disliked Marx's influence as a definitive figure on the field of sociology, even his non-political descriptions of society are profoundly tied to his political philosophy.

Black Wizard said:
All the Marxists I know are super-bourgeoisie themselves.
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That's my experience as well - which goes back to my original point. Middle class and upper middle class people are more likely to be educated and be politically engaged, and therefore they are more commonly represented in political circles, be it a parliament, or any platform in which political ideas are exchanged in detail. That's why "champagne socialists" are a thing.

Magnus said:
I wish more people read Marx.
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Reminds me of the G.K. Chesterton quote, "The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."

The thing about both quotes, aside from the humor, is that they both hold true in many cases, but it is precisely the presence of cases in which they don't hold true that keeps them going. It is easy to read that quote and conclude that being apolitical is the way to go. However, being apolitical has political consequences, whether one realizes is or not. Or as Ralph Nader put it "If you aren't turned on to politics, politics will turn on you." Notably, both Groucho Marx and G.K. Chesterton were politically opinionated figures.
 
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Riots in Stuttgart last night. Police lost control of the situation at around 2 am. Apparently, the trigger was a drug check in a shady party area that led to hundreds of partygoers attack police vehicles and smash store windows with at least several occasions of looting.

www.theguardian.com

Hundreds run riot in Stuttgart city centre after drug checks

More than 20 people arrested after police injured and shops looted in late-night rampage
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
Black Wizard said:
All the Marxists I know are super-bourgeoisie themselves.
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All the ones you've met, maybe. It used to be huge in mining and industrial communities in the North East, and there's still a bit of it about at grass roots level. But there aren't huge communities of industrial workers promoting it any more, so it's not really something many people would learn about outside of higher education or academic further education.
 
I changed my opinion right now after watching this.


It is obvious that German police isn't confrontational at all, and looks very professional in their act. I'm right now on ACAB mode due to horrendous behaviour of other countries' police departments. Which was ill placed here.
 
Zare said:
I changed my opinion right now after watching this.


It is obvious that German police isn't confrontational at all, and looks very professional in their act. I'm right now on ACAB mode due to horrendous behaviour of other countries' police departments. Which was ill placed here.
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I agree. I don't see the police being at fault here. Whatever the background of this outburst, I don't have the feeling that it's justified.
 
Night Prowler said:
www.bbc.com

Kosovo President Thaci faces war crimes indictment

A special prosecutor in The Hague charges Hashim Thaci and others over nearly 100 murders.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com

Thank you, Netherlands, very cool and very legal!
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Nah, war crimes, lies. They are the good guys and they would never do those, as they never do drug and human trafficking on the large scale, nor would they ever harbour jihadist training camps. Even if their independence wasn't 100% legal under intl. law and I assure you it was, there is a huge historical justification of the Kosovo state. The mighty Kosovo medieval state produced many architectural marvels and their renaissance output was unmatched outside of Italy, and while they were occupied in the early modern times, the Pristina university underground circle made revolutionary achievements in math and nutrition even in those dire times.
 
Black Wizard said:
@srfc I see that you're about to finally have a government now with the establishment sidelining Sinn Feinn. That won't go down well surely?
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It will depend what policies are brought in, if the Greens manage to push a progressive agenda it could work out well. However, I expect that off the back of covid, a neo-liberal austerity agenda will be pushed by the two bigger parties, which will end up with the greens being blamed for enabling it.
 
Croatian parliamentary elections were yesterday. Although conservatives won hard, I'm pretty satisfied : they won so hard they don't need to enter coalition with dangerous right wing to stay in power.

My personal preference scored good. A seat in the parliament, which means they're going to have a voice. This is a rather big success for that particular party.
 
early May: state of emergency is over, open up public transport, night clubs and stadiums.

late May: 20k people at a football game

20 June: elections

week later: multiple politicians infected celebrating elections' win

yesterday: our idiot president Vučić - people are not being careful, I will ask for a curfew all weekend

yesterday night in Belgrade: protesters trash the area around the parliament, clash with police, police throws teargas and beats up everyone

half an hour ago: our idiot president Vučić - no curfew, it's not my decision to make after all

What a cunt.

Btw. in live transmission he just said, they can say "Vučić <gay slur F-word>" all they want. "Vučić <gay slur F-word>" is defacto anti-Vučić slogan and has been for years.
 
Jucicu ****ju

On a more serious note, Chetniks hijacking common people's protests and putting their greater Serbia shit there is appalling. Maybe it's worth mentioning that although Vucic is an ultranationalist and is seen as such by outsiders, a certain amount of Serb radicals hate him for being "left", a Kosovo traitor, and so on. Now you can guess what kind of agenda these people have.
 
New government off to a cracking start so far, Minister for Agriculture was sacked after about 2 weeks in the job as it was leaked* that he had been convicted of drink driving and trying to avoid a police checkpoint, and now the leader of the Green Party, the party propping up the government, was asleep in parliament and had to be woken up to vote against a motion to give workers a living wage.

*looks likely it was leaked by another politician who was pissed off about not getting a ministers post.
 
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