European Politics

Without saying that anything justifies a bombing, injustice can make people do terrible things. Indoctrination plays a big role as well. Hatespeech is one very important.

All these factors need to be addressed. If you're downplaying any of them, that's naive I think.
 
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If you guys (Europe) want to censor people and jail them for publishing a cartoon or whatever .. go ahead. That does not speak much for liberté, égalité and fraternité.
 
If you want to continue with downplaying the factors which can cause terrorism .. go ahead. But it does not show that you understand it.
You don't understand radicalism, or at least you do not (want to) show that you understand it.

This summary is worth repeating:
It's both a short-term & long-term crisis, in terms of how Europe should deal with it though. In purely simplistic terms, & looking at the mass migration par of it in isolation --you can have any views you want on border control & immigration starting now; you still have to deal with all the immigrants who are already here, who arrived in Europe facilitated by an immigration system that you may agree or disagree with.
 
If you guys (Europe) want to censor people and jail them for publishing a cartoon or whatever .. go ahead. That does not speak much for liberté, égalité and fraternité.

Alienating your citizens of different background and your immigrants for decades doesn't speak much for it either.
 
I don't think anyone is making any excuses for or placating terrorists, they're looking at every possible way of working out what went wrong and what everyone could do differently. And simultaneously keeping the peace in the face of increasingly vocal and sometimes violent right wing extremists. So far, all bar one of the Paris attackers/accomplices publicly identified has been French or Belgian. I don’t disagree with running checks on people coming into a country – as far as you can - but so far the terrorists appear to be home grown.

Define ‘integration’ too. The London Underground bombers were from very Westernised families in Yorkshire, one was a teaching assistant who loved football, another worked in a fish and chip shop. They don't appear to have been fanatically religious either, certainly not in their younger days. What they all had in common is that they became massively disaffected. The role of any organisation(s) in radicalising them is up for debate, but what’s clear is that they started out fitting in pretty well with the wider community.
 
Alienating your citizens of different background and your immigrants for decades doesn't speak much for it either.


Better ways to express a disagreement than shooting up an office .. what ever happened to "if you do not like it, turn it off".
 
Not directly related to the current discussion, or maybe. But It's beyond me why they haven't gone in and done raids before in some of those places in Belgium and France that they're currently raiding. The police/counter terrorism units just found 31 weapons, bullet-proof vests and material to make bombs in raids in Toulouse and Lyon. It needs to be possible to do a whole lot more preemptive instead of just monitoring people but not doing anything until shit hits the fan. If there's reason to suspect illegal activity - the police needs to act much sooner. Also apparently one of the suspects had been monitored and were well known for a long time before he participated in these attacks....Unforgivable.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/turkey-warned-france-twice_5649c5ebe4b060377349be9c
 
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Better ways to express a disagreement than shooting up an office .. what ever happened to "if you do not like it, turn it off".

I never said the violence is justified. But France can't play the "we didn't do anything wrong" card here. They're specifically targeted for a reason. I wasn't talking about censorship by the way, French policy on foreigners in general.
 
Not directly related to the current discussion, or maybe. But It's beyond me why they haven't gone in and done raids before in some of those places in Belgium and France that they're currently raiding. The police/counter terrorism units just found 31 weapons, bullet-proof vests and material to make bombs in raids in Toulouse and Lyon. It needs to be possible to do a whole lot more preemptive instead of just monitoring people but not doing anything until shit hits the fan. If there's reason to suspect illegal activity - the police needs to act much sooner. Also apparently one of the suspects had been monitored and were well known for a long time before he participated in these attacks....Unforgivable.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/turkey-warned-france-twice_5649c5ebe4b060377349be9c


I wonder about that as well, all kinds of actions have been taking place and it seems unlikely this is all new information. I'd include France bombing command-control targets of ISIS as well, if they knew these targets existed, they should have been hit earlier. But, governments in general are not well known for being proactive
 
I never said the violence is justified. But France can't play the "we didn't do anything wrong" card here. They're specifically targeted for a reason. I wasn't talking about censorship by the way, French policy on foreigners in general.

They cannot play that card, but they can play the "we did not do anything wrong enough to warrant these attacks" card
 
Why do you keep talking like I ever said the attacks were justified?

I am not saying you are, my point is and has been the more immediate problem that these exists. Better integrating immigrants into society, again a 2 way street, is all well and good and likely not something to happen overnight. But they need to be more proactive in rooting these radicals out through intelligence and perhaps some legal changes such as not letting people back in if they are fighting for ISIS/whatever in another country.
 
Yes sir. Here's an excellent text. I urge people to read it, also the ones who especially seem to focus on negative impact of immigration (especially focusing on the "bad" immigrants only).
e.g. @bearfan @Travis The Dragon

"The riots involving many Muslim youths in Paris a decade ago were driven by socio-economic injustice and racial segregation, not a thirst for jihad, sharia or a global Islamic state. These uprisings were a call for the national ideals of freedom, equality and fraternity to apply to them, too."

- - - - - - -

Paris attacks: closing migration routes into France won’t stop terrorism – resisting xenophobia might

https://theconversation.com/paris-a...op-terrorism-resisting-xenophobia-might-50725

When Islamic State claimed responsibility for the attacks in Paris that have killed at least 129 people, it warned that more would follow. French president, François Hollande, has in turn vowed to show “no mercy” in his response.

This pledge is bound to have a profound effect on border controls and the treatment of Syrian refugees in the country. But France has the option to show the world that it will continue to stand for liberté, égalité and fraternité.

For some time, Europe has feared that IS could infiltrate its borders as a part of the huge influx of people fleeing Syria. And indeed, there are reports that at least one of the men who carried out the Paris attacks registered as a Syrian asylum seeker in Greece – one stop on a well-known refugee route.

France has not been enthusiastic about welcoming Syrian refugees. A few months ago, it had agreed to take only 24,000 refugees over two years – a tiny share of the millions of people seeking help.

France had already closed the border to migrants left stranded in Ventimigilia, an Italian town on the border with France – a move which caused significant tension between Rome and Paris. The mayor of one southern French city also had a blunt message for incoming Syrian refugees: “You’re not welcome here. You need to leave.

There is a risk that France will now seek to further tighten its borders. So thousands of Syrians forced to flee their country because of IS are now in danger of finding the door closed when they arrive in Europe. They will have to cope with the knowledge that they could be mistaken for, and treated as, the very people they are trying to escape.

A field day for Islamophobes
The idea that refugee routes could have been exploited by terrorists is also a golden opportunity for Islamophobes. Across Europe, right-wing parties and their anti-immigration policies have become hugely popular in recent years. Several have successfully won places on national governments and many have influence in national parliaments. These groups have sought to further bolster their position as the migration crisis has worsened and are sure to try to capitalise on this latest incident to whip up anti-Muslim sentiment.

Others will suggest that France should simply keep calm and carry on, just like the British did after the London bombings in 2005. But the French should not simply maintain the status quo – they urgently need to work against the increasingly influential identity politics in the country that have partially contributed to the religious extremism they face today.

Even before the Charlie Hebdo shootings in January, the Council of Europe, a human rights group, had warned that France was becoming more intolerant towards minority groups, including Muslims. Despite advances in legislation and measures to combat intolerance and racism, discrimination and hate speech persist.

France has a strong political culture of laïcité according to which all citizens are in principle equal, regardless of their religion. We all stand with the French people for valuing freedom and equality, especially in the fight against IS barbarism. But there have also been concerns that France has become increasingly intolerant towards its religious minorities and their freedoms. The long-running dispute about being able to wear religious clothing in public is a particular example. Official opposition to such symbols is often seen as an attack on freedom .

The riots involving many Muslim youths in Paris a decade ago were driven by socio-economic injustice and racial segregation, not a thirst for jihad, sharia or a global Islamic state. These uprisings were a call for the national ideals of freedom, equality and fraternity to apply to them, too.

These problems have not been addressed in the past decade and the consequences are clear. More than a third of the Europeans fighting with IS in Syria are known to be coming from France. At least three of Friday’s attackers are understood to have been French.

Sending Syrians back, tightening the border controls and bringing in stricter immigration policies will not solve what have become very French problems. The route taken into France by one of these attackers is less of an issue than the route taken out by many more disillusioned citizens. France has marginalised its Muslim youth and some, as a result, have decided to join IS and return to kill.

Religious fanatics perhaps have to be answered with violence – and maybe France has every right to tighten its border controls and strongly resist the mass influx of refugees from Syria. Maybe Syrians will be sent back to countries such as Turkey, which are arguably safe. But none of these solutions addresses the fundamental and structural flaws that seem to be fanning the flames of terrorism.

The solution to terrorism is a more equitable distribution of dignity and opportunity, not the closing down of borders.
All of that plus what those links contain is too much for my lazy mind to read. LOL The reality is that there are already many terrorists here in the USA and another huge attack from them here in imminent and there's probably nothing we can do about it. I do have a solution, but it's WAY too extreme, unrealistic, and racist so I'm not even going to go into that here.
 
You don't have to do all the links Travis (or not yet). But it would suit you well if you would take the time to read that text.
 
I don't think terrorists hate other countries because of intolerance. They just hate their ways of life and how they live. It doesn't matter how much opportunity you give them. They're too insane and extreme and don't care about any of that. They want to terrorize other people no matter what just to be evil and cause harm to others.
 
I don't think terrorists hate other countries because of intolerance. They just hate their ways of life and how they live.

Yes but they already hate everyone that thinks differently from themselves. The attacks are strategically located, they don't just pick anywhere and attack. They attack countries/people that they see as a direct threat to Islam, that's the reason they attack Muslims more than anyone else, they accuse them of "polluting" the religion and want to cleanse them away. France's alienation of people of Muslim background is definitely a reason they picked it out specifically.

Do consider that a main reason for ISIS' strength in Iraq is that Sunni Muslims in the country were alienated in a big way after the overthrow of Saddam. They forced Sunni Muslims to specific neighbourhoods. Many Sunni Muslims who are not extremists side with ISIS as a thought of revenge and because "it's better than being alienated". The thought of avenging oneself plays a part in the foundation and acts of ISIS that cannot be overruled or understated.

This is by no means a justification. It's an explanation of the events that are going on, it's a strategical background. And to solve things, you have to look in depth.
 
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I don't think terrorists hate other countries because of intolerance. They just hate their ways of life and how they live. It doesn't matter how much opportunity you give them. They're too insane and extreme and don't care about any of that. They want to terrorize other people no matter what just to be evil and cause harm to others.
Nobody "just" hates. No one is "just" extreme or insane. If you willfully do not wish to read into these aspects, you willfully choose to be ignorant (or in your own words "racist") about it. Let's try to do something about that, shall we?
 
On censorship. This is fucking insane. Prison sentences and 99 whip lashes for writing poetry and shaking hands with members of the opposite sex....

http://www.pen.org/content/iran-free-two-poets-jailed-exercising-right-expression

And an Iranian artist (Hadi Heidairi) was just arrested in Iran for drawing this picture:

12144287_1516070035376901_625557873_n.jpg


:nuts2::nuts2:
 
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