bearfan
Ancient Mariner
Seems like that puts me in the same place as you ... unless Holland suddenly moved east of Poland
European Politics
- Thread starter Forostar
- Start date
Seems like that puts me in the same place as you ... unless Holland suddenly moved east of Poland
Srogyy
Ancient Mariner
Yet in neither education group Zjednoczona Lewica gets enough % to enter the parliament (remember, they would need 8%).
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
I don't mind Polish people coming here. Hell, my wife even got here! 
I blame that on the past and on how to deal with it.
UpTheIrons
Ancient Mariner
You cannot equate the movement of goods with the socioeconomic and cultural impact of mass immigration on the scale of the current migrant crisis, to do so is simply disingenuous and wrong.
Moreover when has anybody in this thread put forward any ill-will or unkindness towards individual migrants to their countries?
There is a big difference between being anti mass immigration and desiring for your nation to have more stringent border controls (which is actually the attitude of the majority of people) and being against migrant individuals themselves.
Whereas in this thread you have repeatedly asserted that right-wing voters are nothing but uneducated xenophobes and slandered the entire nation of Poland based on the outcome of a democratic, fair election, who really needs to pull themselves together?
Moreover when has anybody in this thread put forward any ill-will or unkindness towards individual migrants to their countries?
There is a big difference between being anti mass immigration and desiring for your nation to have more stringent border controls (which is actually the attitude of the majority of people) and being against migrant individuals themselves.
Whereas in this thread you have repeatedly asserted that right-wing voters are nothing but uneducated xenophobes and slandered the entire nation of Poland based on the outcome of a democratic, fair election, who really needs to pull themselves together?
UpTheIrons
Ancient Mariner
If I have then I apologise, I am not trying to attack you personally by any means or to cast aspersions against your character.
It just seems to me that you should try to be more reasonable towards people who hold different political opinions, rather than to belittle their intelligence, level of education and moral compass.
I am a more right-leaning person myself and I have had many political conversations with more left-wing and centrist friends and I am easily able to reconcile the fact that, though we may disagree vehemently on many issues, that they are still morally upstanding, pleasant people and I would not imply that their own views are poorly thought out or objectively wrong. Perhaps I have been interpreting your comments as more antagonistic than they are meant to be, if so then once again I apologise, but it seems to me that you are painting those who disagree with you with rather broad strokes which in many cases are inaccurate.
It just seems to me that you should try to be more reasonable towards people who hold different political opinions, rather than to belittle their intelligence, level of education and moral compass.
I am a more right-leaning person myself and I have had many political conversations with more left-wing and centrist friends and I am easily able to reconcile the fact that, though we may disagree vehemently on many issues, that they are still morally upstanding, pleasant people and I would not imply that their own views are poorly thought out or objectively wrong. Perhaps I have been interpreting your comments as more antagonistic than they are meant to be, if so then once again I apologise, but it seems to me that you are painting those who disagree with you with rather broad strokes which in many cases are inaccurate.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
To be honest, I have not said that people here think as many who voted for the winning party in Poland, but I can't deny that I think that what you said (in this quote) is true for a big part of Poland. However, I also mentioned educated people, but they are also xenophobic for a huge amount.
I don't think someone only voted for PiS because of their ideas about social regulations. And if so: if someone who is really tolerant with immigrants and against discrimination, then they cannot vote for PiS. And if they do, then those issues are not high their list. Seriously, if it's really important for someone to respect everybody, to be against racism, then they don't vote for this party (that would be really stupid).
I am painting a picture of Poland, and if you disagree or agree with any principle, let it know. Until now, this is not about you personally.
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Forostar
Ancient Mariner
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/26/jarosaw-kaczynski-one-more-thorn-in-europe-eastern-side
Just when it seemed European politics could not get messier or more rancorous, it’s about to get worse.
The triumph of Jarosław Kaczyński and his Law and Justice nationalist conservatives in Sunday’s election in Poland signals more rowdy division among EU leaders failing at every opportunity to master the problems of mass migration.
The last time Kaczyński was in power, a decade ago, there was nothing but trouble on the European scene. The context now is immeasurably less favourable than then. Even though he has nominated the soft-spoken Beata Szydło as prime minister, Kaczyński is expected to call the shots and pick his battles in the EU.
Kaczyński is a prickly, eurosceptic, anti-German nationalist who polarises as a matter of strategy. In other words, he has a lot in common with Viktor Orbán, the strident Hungarian prime minister who accuses the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, of moral imperialism over immigration.
Kaczyński will second that. While Orbán claims he is putting up razor-wire fences to defend Christendom from a Muslim invasion, Kaczyński’s campaign featured the use of antisemitic tropes from the 1930s re-targeted at Muslims. On the centre left in central Europe, populists playing with prejudice and the anti-German card also hold sway in Slovakia and the Czech Republic. ....
.... The paradox is that Poland has never had it better. Tormented by its predatory neighbours, R and Germany, for centuries, the country is safe, free, democratic and independent in the EU and the Nato alliance. While most of the EU went into recession following the 2008 financial crash, Poland, uniquely in the EU, kept growing. The economy has grown one third since then.
In the current seven-year financial period, Poland stands to reap €77bn (£55bn) from the EU budget, by far the biggest beneficiary. EU money has transformed the country’s infrastructure, as it has Hungary’s, over the past decade. But neither Kaczyński nor Orbán can bring themselves to say a good word about the EU. ...
edit:
And this writer is more optimistic:
(end of article)
... Finally, we must understand the true meaning of Orbanisation. It’s not that a single party governs for years with a good majority: that happens in Britain or Spain. Orbanisation means that this dominant party abuses that power to undermine the foundations of liberal constitutional democracy, which are theoretically a condition of EU membership. For example, it creates an overmighty executive, co-opts business interests, misuses security services and erodes the independence of courts, the central bank and the media, thus ensuring that the next election is not really free and fair. PiS already has a constitutional project which has elements of that, and if it picked up a few parliamentary allies it might be in a position to push it through. The EU has been feeble in its response to the Orbanisation of Hungary. It must do better here, supporting the more powerful independent forces in Poland that will themselves stand up for liberal, constitutional and European values.
If these four things happen, we may yet look back from 2020 and say: “Well, these were strange, difficult years in which Poland moved like a crab: backwards, sideways, but in the end even a little forwards.”
Just when it seemed European politics could not get messier or more rancorous, it’s about to get worse.
The triumph of Jarosław Kaczyński and his Law and Justice nationalist conservatives in Sunday’s election in Poland signals more rowdy division among EU leaders failing at every opportunity to master the problems of mass migration.
The last time Kaczyński was in power, a decade ago, there was nothing but trouble on the European scene. The context now is immeasurably less favourable than then. Even though he has nominated the soft-spoken Beata Szydło as prime minister, Kaczyński is expected to call the shots and pick his battles in the EU.
Kaczyński is a prickly, eurosceptic, anti-German nationalist who polarises as a matter of strategy. In other words, he has a lot in common with Viktor Orbán, the strident Hungarian prime minister who accuses the German chancellor, Angela Merkel, of moral imperialism over immigration.
Kaczyński will second that. While Orbán claims he is putting up razor-wire fences to defend Christendom from a Muslim invasion, Kaczyński’s campaign featured the use of antisemitic tropes from the 1930s re-targeted at Muslims. On the centre left in central Europe, populists playing with prejudice and the anti-German card also hold sway in Slovakia and the Czech Republic. ....
.... The paradox is that Poland has never had it better. Tormented by its predatory neighbours, R and Germany, for centuries, the country is safe, free, democratic and independent in the EU and the Nato alliance. While most of the EU went into recession following the 2008 financial crash, Poland, uniquely in the EU, kept growing. The economy has grown one third since then.
In the current seven-year financial period, Poland stands to reap €77bn (£55bn) from the EU budget, by far the biggest beneficiary. EU money has transformed the country’s infrastructure, as it has Hungary’s, over the past decade. But neither Kaczyński nor Orbán can bring themselves to say a good word about the EU. ...
edit:
And this writer is more optimistic:
(end of article)
... Finally, we must understand the true meaning of Orbanisation. It’s not that a single party governs for years with a good majority: that happens in Britain or Spain. Orbanisation means that this dominant party abuses that power to undermine the foundations of liberal constitutional democracy, which are theoretically a condition of EU membership. For example, it creates an overmighty executive, co-opts business interests, misuses security services and erodes the independence of courts, the central bank and the media, thus ensuring that the next election is not really free and fair. PiS already has a constitutional project which has elements of that, and if it picked up a few parliamentary allies it might be in a position to push it through. The EU has been feeble in its response to the Orbanisation of Hungary. It must do better here, supporting the more powerful independent forces in Poland that will themselves stand up for liberal, constitutional and European values.
If these four things happen, we may yet look back from 2020 and say: “Well, these were strange, difficult years in which Poland moved like a crab: backwards, sideways, but in the end even a little forwards.”
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bearfan
Ancient Mariner
Poland has continued to grow through the global financial crisis but, in general, workers can earn more in neighboring Germany than they can at home.
"Given that GDP per capita in Poland is 68% of the EU average -- compared to 107% for the Eurozone as a whole -- this could well be a matter of decades," Swidlicki wrote
"Given that GDP per capita in Poland is 68% of the EU average -- compared to 107% for the Eurozone as a whole -- this could well be a matter of decades," Swidlicki wrote
bearfan
Ancient Mariner
This year, Mr. Kaczynski’s party toned down its message. It put together an agenda that proved popular with voters, including cheaper housing and higher benefits for families with children, funded by new taxes on mostly foreign-owned supermarkets and banks. Those proposals sparked fears among economists that Poland would boost deficits and scare off foreign investors, concerns the party has said were overblown.
The party wants to stand up to Vladimir Putin’s Russia and be less politically aligned with Poland’s largest trading partner, Germany. Relations were sour with both countries when Mr. Kaczynski’s party ruled previously.
Despite an appearance of deep divisions, both the outgoing ruling camp and the incoming nationalists want a big role for the government in the economy and have kept the largest industrial companies under state control. They want coal-rich Poland to continue burning the resource, opposing the European Union’s goals for cutting carbon-dioxide emissions. They don’t see the euro replacing the zloty anytime soon.
Poland has been a relative economic success. On Civic Platform’s watch, the country’s economy grew by nearly a quarter from 2008, while Europe’s was stagnant.
Yet Civic Platform is also responsible for years of delays in the completion of highways. Some sections still under construction were supposed to be ready ahead of the UEFA European Championship soccer tournament in 2012, which Poland co-hosted with Ukraine, but still aren’t complete.
Scandals within the party’s ranks have also taken a toll. Last year’s leaked recordings have eroded trust in the government and forced many of the officials involved to leave politics. Polish authorities are conducting an investigation into who ordered the recordings to be made.
Low wages in the EU’s largest emerging economy have also featured heavily in the election campaign, having contributed to the migration of more than two million people out of the country to the more affluent west of Europe since it joined the bloc in 2004.
Unemployment was at 9.7% in September, below the European average, but the average take-home pay was the equivalent of just $750 a month. Most parties want a higher minimum wage and have urged businesses to innovate rather than rely on cheap labor and a mostly undervalued zloty to export goods, more than half of which go to the eurozone. Poland is a key supplier to Germany but has few brands of its own that are internationally recognizable.
The party wants to stand up to Vladimir Putin’s Russia and be less politically aligned with Poland’s largest trading partner, Germany. Relations were sour with both countries when Mr. Kaczynski’s party ruled previously.
Despite an appearance of deep divisions, both the outgoing ruling camp and the incoming nationalists want a big role for the government in the economy and have kept the largest industrial companies under state control. They want coal-rich Poland to continue burning the resource, opposing the European Union’s goals for cutting carbon-dioxide emissions. They don’t see the euro replacing the zloty anytime soon.
Poland has been a relative economic success. On Civic Platform’s watch, the country’s economy grew by nearly a quarter from 2008, while Europe’s was stagnant.
Yet Civic Platform is also responsible for years of delays in the completion of highways. Some sections still under construction were supposed to be ready ahead of the UEFA European Championship soccer tournament in 2012, which Poland co-hosted with Ukraine, but still aren’t complete.
Scandals within the party’s ranks have also taken a toll. Last year’s leaked recordings have eroded trust in the government and forced many of the officials involved to leave politics. Polish authorities are conducting an investigation into who ordered the recordings to be made.
Low wages in the EU’s largest emerging economy have also featured heavily in the election campaign, having contributed to the migration of more than two million people out of the country to the more affluent west of Europe since it joined the bloc in 2004.
Unemployment was at 9.7% in September, below the European average, but the average take-home pay was the equivalent of just $750 a month. Most parties want a higher minimum wage and have urged businesses to innovate rather than rely on cheap labor and a mostly undervalued zloty to export goods, more than half of which go to the eurozone. Poland is a key supplier to Germany but has few brands of its own that are internationally recognizable.
I'd say that Poland has it's reasons for voting for a right-wing party. As far as right-wing parties go, it's not even that bad - very strong support for some welfare programs, for example. But I don't think that anti-refugee bias is the least of the reasons that this right-wing party won, either.
I suppose if left-wingers are "butthurt" it's probably because their vision was so firmly defeated. But I wouldn't know - I live in a centre-left country, where we only get butt-hurt because we split our own vote. When we don't, us lefties win in droves.
I suppose if left-wingers are "butthurt" it's probably because their vision was so firmly defeated. But I wouldn't know - I live in a centre-left country, where we only get butt-hurt because we split our own vote. When we don't, us lefties win in droves.
What happened?
