European Politics

[The Flash]

Right wing and far-right wing are different things. I don't think Foro is saying all non-left is racist, ultra-nationalist or bigoted. However, I also don't think he has the right to call the entire nation out by following just a single part of the whole political agenda. I'm sure (and as pointed out by the Polish member on the board) there are more variables involved. People more often than not vote for "the best available", not the "perfect candidate".

Coming up with accusations on what you've "heard" isn't the best way to deal with politics, either.

 

[Forostar]

Bearfan, although it depends on how far right wing they are (how sick their ideas are), I indeed say: Correct, you're right. The world has never been good with people ruling nations like that. Of course, extreme left is not very good as well.

Dude, please. You act as if you're the most informed about the situation in Poland and you don't even live here. Or do you? You should be more humble.

Sometimes I think I know too much about it. I come often in Poland, since 2000. Basically the other half of my family is Polish, and I have read a lot about their dark past, also about the things most Poles don't like to discuss (antisemitism after WWII for example).

I've always thought these images and stories of people calling Obama a communist had to be some sort of play/joke on the idea of American stupidity, you're telling me it is not so?!

It is not a joke. I have seen the hate in the face of people calling Obama a communist. Many right wing people in the States really think it is like that, and make no subtle difference. They are misled.

 

[The Flash]

I'm not gonna take part in the Polish politics discussion, I have no clue what the situation is. But I think I should point out that it's is perfectly possible to be racist as a left wing supporter or as a centrist. Racism does not equal to far-right politics. Same goes for nationalism.

Being opposed to racism or nationalism is one thing. Being opposed to the right wing as a whole is another. I've come across many right-wing voters who aren't racist or nationalist in any shape or form (You'll find that many classic capitalism, classic liberalism and libertarianism supporters vote right-wing), and I've come across many left-wingers who are as racist as they come.

 

[bearfan]

Right wing and far-right wing are different things. I don't think Foro is saying all non-left is racist, ultra-nationalist or bigoted. However, I also don't think he has the right to call the entire nation out by following just a single part of the whole political agenda. I'm sure (and as pointed out by the Polish member on the board) there are more variables involved. People more often than not vote for "the best available", not the "perfect candidate".

Coming up with accusations on what you've "heard" isn't the best way to deal with politics, either.

It seems he is with "Poland is a xenophobic shit country, full of dumb people."

Especially when the party that won is not really all that right wing .. especially economically. They sound rather "left-ish" in certain areas.

=======================
Poland grew 23.8 percent between 2008-2014, and was the only economy in the EU to avoid recession in 2008, which the country last saw in 1992. Civic Platform did a terrible job in selling this economic record and PiS a great one in tapping into persistent discontent. The average post-tax monthly salary is 2,940 zlotys (€700), a third of the level in Germany. During the campaign, Szydło dismissively said, “Statistics won’t feed us.”

Law and Justice promised a lower retirement age, a monthly subsidy of 500 zlotys per child and a minimum wage. The total bill for the new social spending promises will be 39 billion zlotys, a sum the party says can be scrounged up with better tax collection. Bashing business is as popular in Poland as anywhere: PiS wants to limit the growth of foreign retail outlets, to impose a new bank tax and to force banks to absorb losses in turning hundreds of thousands of expensive mortgages denominated in Swiss francs into zloty loans.

 

[Forostar]

I oppose racism, left or right wing. I oppose right wing, also for other things besides racism. I oppose strong nationalism (not so much in sports, or just being proud about some positive achievement). I oppose libertarianism. Not sure how classic liberalism is defined. This differs somewhat per country.

Right wing and far-right wing are different things. I don't think Foro is saying all non-left is racist, ultra-nationalist or bigoted. However, I also don't think he has the right to call the entire nation out by following just a single part of the whole political agenda. I'm sure (and as pointed out by the Polish member on the board) there are more variables involved. People more often than not vote for "the best available", not the "perfect candidate".

Coming up with accusations on what you've "heard" isn't the best way to deal with politics, either.

I also focus on Europe, and beyond. Eveything you and I have learned, we've "heard" ourselves as well. Naturally, people have experienced something more or different in a country when they live in it, but that doesn't always mean that their opinions are the (only) (correct) ones. Outiders can see consequences, sometimes even better than the ones staring at something without looking at it from another point of view. Right now, they are good at holding the mirror.

 

[The Flash]

If oppose in this context is calling people who aren't of the same political view as you dumb, I'm afraid it's no good. Democracy feeds off disagreements, criticism and people of opposing thoughts being able to come together to come up with something good for the people.

 

[Night Prowler]

I dunno about other countries, but pretty much all right wing parties in Serbia are xenophobic in one way or another. I haven't met a single educated well-mannered person who supports a right wing party... they are all either old and out of touch with reality (no internet, TV and low education + very religious) or young dumb foulmouthed idiots who hate everyone who's not a straight orthodox Serb.

 

[Forostar]

Hear, hear.

Many Poles are not educated either. Especially old people. And young people who are right wing as well. Polish Catholicism is very conservative and that makes a big impact.

 

[Srogyy]

I oppose right wing, also for other things besides racism.

Such as?

And saying right wing = racism (which you've just said, let's be honest) is as unacceptable as saying Poland is "a xenophobic shit country full of dumb people".

 

[Forostar]

There are educated right wing people (among older people), but these have experienced communism and associate all that is left wing with communism. In Poland, the biggest left wing party consists of some (ex-)Communists. What these people oversee is that there are some younger left wing parties (like Razem) who have nothing to do with old communistic regime.

 

[The Flash]

I'll go with an example from my own country regarding the statements on education level of right wing voters.

When you look at the statistics from political surveys, you'll find that the parties with the most educated voters by average and overall are CHP and MHP. MHP is a far-right, nationalist party. I've talked politics with many MHP voters and despite being a keen anti-nationalist and a centre-left voter, I've appreciated their input. Democracy warrants you to be able to welcome opposing ideas and learn something from them.

 

[Forostar]

Such as?

Ideas about money and how to divide it. The way they are busy with (personal) profit. Caring about themselves or their own class only.

And saying right wing = racism (which you've just said, let's be honest) is as unacceptable as saying Poland is "a xenophobic shit country full of dumb people".

I have rephrased that last sentence. I have not said that right wing is always racist. But I feel that there is lots of xenophobia in Poland. I have heard speeches against homosexuality. If I talk Dutch with my wife in the tram, we're looked upon with disdain. I don't believe these people are very educated, left wing people.

I have also seen how a book called Strach was received with anger. Know about that @Srogyy ?
Everything that critices Poland, even if written by Poles themselves, gets criticism as well. A very defensive attitude. Probably because Poles always think they have a heroic and immaculate past.

 

[bearfan]

Ideas about money and how to divide it. The way they are busy with (personal) profit. Caring about themselves or their own class only.

So, you agree with the right wing xenophobic PiS (aka Piss party)

Law and Justice promised a lower retirement age, a monthly subsidy of 500 zlotys per child and a minimum wage. The total bill for the new social spending promises will be 39 billion zlotys, a sum the party says can be scrounged up with better tax collection. Bashing business is as popular in Poland as anywhere: PiS wants to limit the growth of foreign retail outlets, to impose a new bank tax and to force banks to absorb losses in turning hundreds of thousands of expensive mortgages denominated in Swiss francs into zloty loans.

 

[Srogyy]

What these people oversee is that there are some younger left wing parties (like Razem) who have nothing to do with old communistic regime.

Are you kidding me? Razem IS a communistic party. Read their program.

Many Poles are not educated either. Especially old people. And young people who are right wing as well. Polish Catholicism is very conservative and that makes a big impact.

3,4% of people aged 18-29 voted for Zjednoczona Lewica and 5,2% for Razem. Do you think they are the only educated group among the young people?

First image: age. Second: education.

If I talk Dutch with my wife in the tram, we're looked upon with disdain.

Now. That's plain stupid. They looked upon you with DISDAIN? How the hell do you know what they were thinking?! Do you base your every opinion on stuff like that? That would explain a lot!

 

[The Flash]

The problem here is Foro's tendency to generalize in his statements. Not everything is black and white in politics. In fact, they very rarely are.

 

[Forostar]

That part sounds leftish indeed, bearfan. But too leftish for me (I am not far left). Hitler also wanted such things.

 

[bearfan]

I can promise I did not speak a word of Polish during my trip to Poland and most everyone was quite nice and helpful .. a few pointed out what a difficult language Polish is to learn and helped me out with a few phrases to help me get by. Guess I just met the nice left-wingers during my stay

 

[bearfan]

That part sounds leftish indeed, bearfan. But too leftish for me (I am not far left). Hitler also wanted such things.

Name one left wing party (of any significance) not in favor of such things (minimum wage, money to the poor, and a general anti-bank attitude

 

[Forostar]

@Srogyy

I know someone personally who wants to be a Razem politician. He is not a communist. I haven't read their program, but I'd be very surprised if they are.

Pis is popular among all ages and educational levels, but that is because of the church and communist past, but your stats still show what I have said. The more educated, the more left wing. Educated don't vote for PSL (farmer party). The more educated, the more votes for Razem and Zjednoczona lewica.

 

[Forostar]

I can promise I did not speak a word of Polish during my trip to Poland and most everyone was quite nice and helpful .. a few pointed out what a difficult language Polish is to learn and helped me out with a few phrases to help me get by. Guess I just met the nice left-wingers during my stay

I have also met such people. That's behaviour with tourists. But there's a difference between treatment of western tourists and people who immigrate from the east.

edit:
You didn't meet oldies listening to Radio Maryja (antisemtic radio bchannel, popular among old Catholics). They don't speak English anyway.