European Politics
- Thread starter Forostar
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Re: European Union
Both of you need to chill out. Originally I thought Foro was mad at GK for being conservative, then I noticed that GK called Foro out. So yeah. Both of you.
Foro, sometimes you can act black and white too. I just don't think you notice when you don't have some bend in you. Please try to be a little forgiving. GK, if you think something is stupid, explain why. And if you can't reach consensus, please try to agree to disagree.
Both of you need to chill out. Originally I thought Foro was mad at GK for being conservative, then I noticed that GK called Foro out. So yeah. Both of you.
Foro, sometimes you can act black and white too. I just don't think you notice when you don't have some bend in you. Please try to be a little forgiving. GK, if you think something is stupid, explain why. And if you can't reach consensus, please try to agree to disagree.
Re: European Union
Here's my thoughts:
GK, you are treating Greece like it is a person. Greece is not a person. It is a country. A government in Greece has fucked up, that doesn't mean everyone in the nation should pay. Governments change. Whether or not you think the EU is good is something different. A lot of people don't agree with it, and many people have been forcasting its downfall since the EC was formed. I don't think Greece is that point.
The article you posted certainly has some flaws. Like the thought that the welfare state is forever damaging. Many welfare states have been successful. Sweden, Denmark, and Norway come to mind. Some have failed. I think of Iceland when I think of a failing welfare state. The key is striking a balance between taxation and spending which few countries had been able to do. The EU will have to find a way to figure out what happens to Greece, and it will establish precedent, something very important in a growing government (which the EU is).
You make the comparison to EI, but I don't believe that it's an accurate comparison. EI is a very good program for most people who use it. In Nova Scotia, one of the poorest areas of Canada, and one of the areas with the highest abuse rate, it is still not "habitually" used by everyone. About half the people on EI are abusers.
This doesn't mean the program is broken; it means it is flawed. The other half of people get back on their feet, take advantage of re-education program, go to school, and re-enter the workforce. It means it needs work to reduce abuse.
Foro, you definitely took Onhell's post out of context. I'm sure he was just asking for some clarification on these things. Mexicans don't understand rules anyway, otherwise they'd stay on their side of the border.
Here's my thoughts:
GK, you are treating Greece like it is a person. Greece is not a person. It is a country. A government in Greece has fucked up, that doesn't mean everyone in the nation should pay. Governments change. Whether or not you think the EU is good is something different. A lot of people don't agree with it, and many people have been forcasting its downfall since the EC was formed. I don't think Greece is that point.
The article you posted certainly has some flaws. Like the thought that the welfare state is forever damaging. Many welfare states have been successful. Sweden, Denmark, and Norway come to mind. Some have failed. I think of Iceland when I think of a failing welfare state. The key is striking a balance between taxation and spending which few countries had been able to do. The EU will have to find a way to figure out what happens to Greece, and it will establish precedent, something very important in a growing government (which the EU is).
You make the comparison to EI, but I don't believe that it's an accurate comparison. EI is a very good program for most people who use it. In Nova Scotia, one of the poorest areas of Canada, and one of the areas with the highest abuse rate, it is still not "habitually" used by everyone. About half the people on EI are abusers.
This doesn't mean the program is broken; it means it is flawed. The other half of people get back on their feet, take advantage of re-education program, go to school, and re-enter the workforce. It means it needs work to reduce abuse.
Foro, you definitely took Onhell's post out of context. I'm sure he was just asking for some clarification on these things. Mexicans don't understand rules anyway, otherwise they'd stay on their side of the border.
Genghis Khan
Ancient Mariner
Re: European Union
LC, you're ignoring the role of voters in all this. You tend to blame everything on the government, and certainly there is a lot of blame. But the culture also shapes the government, particularly the intellecutals. I'd like to see how anyone can expect to achieve the things that Papandreou promised. I wonder what the voters were thinking - certainly not rationally.
As for welfare statism, it is damaging to the degree that it is practiced and can only succeed to the degree that the country has high politico-economic freedoms. Eventually if those two balance out, the country stagnates. I've never read things on Denmark or Norway, but I know the Swedish experiment is failing, practically if not emotionally. I read how the immigrants are living in areas outside the city. They're isolated. They have no jobs; but they're financially taken care of. This does not stop racism between the two groups nor is it stopping property violence by the immigrants. They want change as the current system no longer serves their needs. Upward mobility is not possible. The native Swedes despite the difficulties still believe that their experiment can work.
"About half the people on EI are abusers." I cannot see how you don't view this as a problem. The thing you overlooked is that in the long run the system cannot work. You've ignored my point on how unemployment does not go down to the previous level once the economy improves. Increase EI and you increase the problem of dependance. In the previous century, there was more of a fallback to family and immediate community for help. We don't do that much anymore.
About other posts:
I'm not a conservative, but libertarian. I thought I made that clear years ago. For example, I don't approve of the war in Iraq or crony capitalism, the latter which is prominant along both the left and right, Bush and Obama, Harper and Martin.
My issue was clear. When Forostar said that "EU rules are not important anyway" it was pretty clear what that leads to. I'd like someone to justify how this view is not "dumb" as I called it. That's not emotionalism, but a rational statement.
@ Perun: I'm not goint to argue with you on the benefits or shortcomings of 'Focus' magazine, or on the general attitude of German people, as that's beyond my point or experience. The only comment I made is that feeling like the rest of EU was betrayed by the Greek government is an understandable statement.
On a more positive note at least Canada is leading 1:0 in hockey.
LooseCannon said:Here's my thoughts:
GK, you are treating Greece like it is a person. Greece is not a person. It is a country. A government in Greece has fucked up, that doesn't mean everyone in the nation should pay. Governments change. Whether or not you think the EU is good is something different. A lot of people don't agree with it, and many people have been forcasting its downfall since the EC was formed. I don't think Greece is that point.
The article you posted certainly has some flaws. Like the thought that the welfare state is forever damaging. Many welfare states have been successful. Sweden, Denmark, and Norway come to mind. Some have failed. I think of Iceland when I think of a failing welfare state. The key is striking a balance between taxation and spending which few countries had been able to do. The EU will have to find a way to figure out what happens to Greece, and it will establish precedent, something very important in a growing government (which the EU is).
You make the comparison to EI, but I don't believe that it's an accurate comparison. EI is a very good program for most people who use it. In Nova Scotia, one of the poorest areas of Canada, and one of the areas with the highest abuse rate, it is still not "habitually" used by everyone. About half the people on EI are abusers.
This doesn't mean the program is broken; it means it is flawed. The other half of people get back on their feet, take advantage of re-education program, go to school, and re-enter the workforce. It means it needs work to reduce abuse.
Foro, you definitely took Onhell's post out of context. I'm sure he was just asking for some clarification on these things. Mexicans don't understand rules anyway, otherwise they'd stay on their side of the border.
LC, you're ignoring the role of voters in all this. You tend to blame everything on the government, and certainly there is a lot of blame. But the culture also shapes the government, particularly the intellecutals. I'd like to see how anyone can expect to achieve the things that Papandreou promised. I wonder what the voters were thinking - certainly not rationally.
As for welfare statism, it is damaging to the degree that it is practiced and can only succeed to the degree that the country has high politico-economic freedoms. Eventually if those two balance out, the country stagnates. I've never read things on Denmark or Norway, but I know the Swedish experiment is failing, practically if not emotionally. I read how the immigrants are living in areas outside the city. They're isolated. They have no jobs; but they're financially taken care of. This does not stop racism between the two groups nor is it stopping property violence by the immigrants. They want change as the current system no longer serves their needs. Upward mobility is not possible. The native Swedes despite the difficulties still believe that their experiment can work.
"About half the people on EI are abusers." I cannot see how you don't view this as a problem. The thing you overlooked is that in the long run the system cannot work. You've ignored my point on how unemployment does not go down to the previous level once the economy improves. Increase EI and you increase the problem of dependance. In the previous century, there was more of a fallback to family and immediate community for help. We don't do that much anymore.
About other posts:
I'm not a conservative, but libertarian. I thought I made that clear years ago. For example, I don't approve of the war in Iraq or crony capitalism, the latter which is prominant along both the left and right, Bush and Obama, Harper and Martin.
My issue was clear. When Forostar said that "EU rules are not important anyway" it was pretty clear what that leads to. I'd like someone to justify how this view is not "dumb" as I called it. That's not emotionalism, but a rational statement.
@ Perun: I'm not goint to argue with you on the benefits or shortcomings of 'Focus' magazine, or on the general attitude of German people, as that's beyond my point or experience. The only comment I made is that feeling like the rest of EU was betrayed by the Greek government is an understandable statement.
On a more positive note at least Canada is leading 1:0 in hockey.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Re: European Union
Alright, I still was curious for Genghis' reaction. I decided to read what he said.
I'd like to clear up something as well, and I hope things will calm down afterwards. If not, so be it.
This was meant cynical. In fact that whole post was a cynical post. Why was it cynical? Because I didn't have the idea that -up til that moment- anyone cared about the EU rules in this matter. Most people only seemed to defend Greece, and their welfare. So my post was totally misunderstood as well. If I misunderstand what Genghis meant in the stuff I just quoted, then I am really afraid we're having huge communication problems here.
For the rest, this is what I seriously think about this issue.
And this whole issue just started, I expect some more political reactions soon. I am glad that our Minister of Finance made the following point, already:
The Dutch government said there were no plans at present to buy Greek bonds, and that the top priority for the Netherlands was to ensure the stability of the euro.
"We don't want to spend taxpayer money to save the Greeks."
This issue has to do with money spending, and that's why I skipped most ranting about other stuff. It distracts, and has not much to do with a solution. Check this out: this following article is an example of how much the Greek are spending. The population should compare their situation with other countries and then they know it isn't that abnormal what the EU wants (I highlighted the examples in bold letters):
-------
Greece needs to start looking like an EU country
Published: March 1 2010 02:00 | Last updated: March 1 2010 02:00
From Mr Edin Mujagic and Mr Andy Langenkamp.
Sir, Like many others, George Soros claims that Greece will not be able to meet the criteria stipulated by the European Union in order to receive a financial helping hand (“The euro will face bigger tests than Greece”, February 22).
Large budget cuts will inevitably depress economic activity in the short term, making almost unachievable the goal of reducing the budget deficit by some 8 percentage points of gross domestic product. However, on the other hand, we must not create an image of the European Union demanding something extraordinary from Greece. In a sense, one could argue the EU just wants Greece to look a bit more like other EU member states. Take for example the retirement age. In Greece it stands at 61 years, and now there is fierce discussion about whether to increase it to 63. As a comparison, the Netherlands and Germany recently increased or are about to increase their retirement age from 65 to 67. Moreover, when they retire, the Greeks receive 80 per cent or more of their last earned income. This includes Greek civil servants. In the Netherlands it is some 70 per cent of one’s average income, which is of course much lower than the last received pay cheque. The same is the case in countries such as Germany and others.
Furthermore, Greek civil servants receive not 12, not 13, but 14 monthly wages (for example two in May and two in December). Dutch civil servants receive a bonus at the end of the year, but it is far from being equal to one month’s salary, let alone two.
It is highly unlikely that Greek civil servants are better or more efficient than their Dutch or German counterparts, to say the least.
These are just a few examples to illustrate that Greece, in many fields, only needs to start looking more like other European countries in order to alleviate its financial troubles.
It also seems that the Greeks are aware of that, given the fairly small scale of strikes in reaction to the plans the Greek government has proposed so far.
Edin Mujagic,
Monetary Economist
Andy Langenkamp,
Political Analyst
ECR Research,
Utrecht, The Netherlands
------
The BBC also has a newsupdate which speaks for itself.:
....The head of the 16-nation Eurogroup, Jean-Claude Juncker, says: "Greece must understand that taxpayers in Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands are not prepared to correct Greek fiscal policy mistakes". The French Economy Minister, Christine Lagarde, reminded everyone that the euro was built on the premise that "there would be no bail-out, because everyone had to play by the same rules and had to respect the same discipline".
At the end of last week the Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou sounded like a man who knew he needed to do more. "Will we let the country go bankrupt?" he asked, "or will we react?" So he may this week announce yet more austerity measures, perhaps a further cut in benefits or a hike in sales tax. He must hope he can squeeze his public sector some more whilst keeping the rioters at bay....
Alright, I still was curious for Genghis' reaction. I decided to read what he said.
I'd like to clear up something as well, and I hope things will calm down afterwards. If not, so be it.
Genghis Khan said:
This was meant cynical. In fact that whole post was a cynical post. Why was it cynical? Because I didn't have the idea that -up til that moment- anyone cared about the EU rules in this matter. Most people only seemed to defend Greece, and their welfare. So my post was totally misunderstood as well. If I misunderstand what Genghis meant in the stuff I just quoted, then I am really afraid we're having huge communication problems here.
For the rest, this is what I seriously think about this issue.
And this whole issue just started, I expect some more political reactions soon. I am glad that our Minister of Finance made the following point, already:
The Dutch government said there were no plans at present to buy Greek bonds, and that the top priority for the Netherlands was to ensure the stability of the euro.
"We don't want to spend taxpayer money to save the Greeks."
This issue has to do with money spending, and that's why I skipped most ranting about other stuff. It distracts, and has not much to do with a solution. Check this out: this following article is an example of how much the Greek are spending. The population should compare their situation with other countries and then they know it isn't that abnormal what the EU wants (I highlighted the examples in bold letters):
-------
Greece needs to start looking like an EU country
Published: March 1 2010 02:00 | Last updated: March 1 2010 02:00
From Mr Edin Mujagic and Mr Andy Langenkamp.
Sir, Like many others, George Soros claims that Greece will not be able to meet the criteria stipulated by the European Union in order to receive a financial helping hand (“The euro will face bigger tests than Greece”, February 22).
Large budget cuts will inevitably depress economic activity in the short term, making almost unachievable the goal of reducing the budget deficit by some 8 percentage points of gross domestic product. However, on the other hand, we must not create an image of the European Union demanding something extraordinary from Greece. In a sense, one could argue the EU just wants Greece to look a bit more like other EU member states. Take for example the retirement age. In Greece it stands at 61 years, and now there is fierce discussion about whether to increase it to 63. As a comparison, the Netherlands and Germany recently increased or are about to increase their retirement age from 65 to 67. Moreover, when they retire, the Greeks receive 80 per cent or more of their last earned income. This includes Greek civil servants. In the Netherlands it is some 70 per cent of one’s average income, which is of course much lower than the last received pay cheque. The same is the case in countries such as Germany and others.
Furthermore, Greek civil servants receive not 12, not 13, but 14 monthly wages (for example two in May and two in December). Dutch civil servants receive a bonus at the end of the year, but it is far from being equal to one month’s salary, let alone two.
It is highly unlikely that Greek civil servants are better or more efficient than their Dutch or German counterparts, to say the least.
These are just a few examples to illustrate that Greece, in many fields, only needs to start looking more like other European countries in order to alleviate its financial troubles.
It also seems that the Greeks are aware of that, given the fairly small scale of strikes in reaction to the plans the Greek government has proposed so far.
Edin Mujagic,
Monetary Economist
Andy Langenkamp,
Political Analyst
ECR Research,
Utrecht, The Netherlands
------
The BBC also has a newsupdate which speaks for itself.:
....The head of the 16-nation Eurogroup, Jean-Claude Juncker, says: "Greece must understand that taxpayers in Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands are not prepared to correct Greek fiscal policy mistakes". The French Economy Minister, Christine Lagarde, reminded everyone that the euro was built on the premise that "there would be no bail-out, because everyone had to play by the same rules and had to respect the same discipline".
At the end of last week the Greek Prime Minister George Papandreou sounded like a man who knew he needed to do more. "Will we let the country go bankrupt?" he asked, "or will we react?" So he may this week announce yet more austerity measures, perhaps a further cut in benefits or a hike in sales tax. He must hope he can squeeze his public sector some more whilst keeping the rioters at bay....
Rotam
Night and day I scan horizon, sea and sky
Re: European Union
I wanna say something: my country is suffering from the worst kind of politicians since we're a Democracy. They're generally stupid, egocentric, and more interested to defend the party-system than to think about the interests of the country. Actually there are a couple of known economists that often say that this Republic is condemned in a near future.
Of course the world economic crisis since 2000, the financial crisis, the always ascending unemployment, the constant debate about public spending on huge facilities, the ever increasing debt percentage on the gdp (that's the Greece major problem, right ? it's on 120% level, we are near the 80 %, more or less), so, in a few words, my country is completely paralysed.
The problem of southern Europe is far more complex than a "pigs" situation, that's stupid and offensive. It's like northern Europe is trying to break the EU into two major blocks, the richest and the poorest, and the poorest should be treated like the underdogs.
I don't think that these were the ideals behind the creation of the EU in the first place. Of course there are rules, but you should realized that the dependence on Brussels affects much more the economy of the poorest than of the richest.
I wanna say something: my country is suffering from the worst kind of politicians since we're a Democracy. They're generally stupid, egocentric, and more interested to defend the party-system than to think about the interests of the country. Actually there are a couple of known economists that often say that this Republic is condemned in a near future.
Of course the world economic crisis since 2000, the financial crisis, the always ascending unemployment, the constant debate about public spending on huge facilities, the ever increasing debt percentage on the gdp (that's the Greece major problem, right ? it's on 120% level, we are near the 80 %, more or less), so, in a few words, my country is completely paralysed.
The problem of southern Europe is far more complex than a "pigs" situation, that's stupid and offensive. It's like northern Europe is trying to break the EU into two major blocks, the richest and the poorest, and the poorest should be treated like the underdogs.
I don't think that these were the ideals behind the creation of the EU in the first place. Of course there are rules, but you should realized that the dependence on Brussels affects much more the economy of the poorest than of the richest.
Genghis Khan
Ancient Mariner
Re: European Union
I'm glad it was a miscommunication.
I'm also glad that the EU is asking Greece to fix its own problems.
You're Spanish. Right?
Forostar said:
I'm glad it was a miscommunication.
I'm also glad that the EU is asking Greece to fix its own problems.
Rotam said:
You're Spanish. Right?
Genghis Khan
Ancient Mariner
Re: European Union
He said that his country is at the 80%, while Greece is around 120% debt level.
By the way, the Greek issue of "the Greeks receive 80 per cent or more of their last earned income" is true in California, as well. Some public servants even had two jobs at the end of their career just to double their retirement paycheques. Sick! The state is nearly bankrupt now and the government is cavalierly saying basically we can't be bankrupt as we're sovereign and can always tax more. Sick! The next would-be governator is planning to run on legalizing prostitution simply to increase the tax base.
He said that his country is at the 80%, while Greece is around 120% debt level.
By the way, the Greek issue of "the Greeks receive 80 per cent or more of their last earned income" is true in California, as well. Some public servants even had two jobs at the end of their career just to double their retirement paycheques. Sick! The state is nearly bankrupt now and the government is cavalierly saying basically we can't be bankrupt as we're sovereign and can always tax more. Sick! The next would-be governator is planning to run on legalizing prostitution simply to increase the tax base.
Re: European Union
To be fair, California has a fucked up way of doing taxation. The government can increase spending all they want but they can't increase taxes by more than a small token amount without a public referenda. The end result is a broke state.
If a state, province, or country wants to have services they should find a way to pay for it. But the deficit in California, by comparison, is significantly *larger* than Canada's - and that should say something.
To be fair, California has a fucked up way of doing taxation. The government can increase spending all they want but they can't increase taxes by more than a small token amount without a public referenda. The end result is a broke state.
If a state, province, or country wants to have services they should find a way to pay for it. But the deficit in California, by comparison, is significantly *larger* than Canada's - and that should say something.
Genghis Khan
Ancient Mariner
Re: European Union
Yep. California I believe is the state with the highest GDP, so taxing companies is extremely unlikely. Public workers have a collective bargaining agreement, so I can't see their benefits being cut. Increasing taxes is not likely to be voted in by the populace. How many prostitutes does the state plan on attracting to solve this debt?
Yep. California I believe is the state with the highest GDP, so taxing companies is extremely unlikely. Public workers have a collective bargaining agreement, so I can't see their benefits being cut. Increasing taxes is not likely to be voted in by the populace. How many prostitutes does the state plan on attracting to solve this debt?
Re: European Union
Hey, Arnie did autograph some of the auctioned cars to increase their value! I have a friend in CA that said last year, when their tax refund came around, the state gave them IOUs. Crazy, huh?
Hey, Arnie did autograph some of the auctioned cars to increase their value! I have a friend in CA that said last year, when their tax refund came around, the state gave them IOUs. Crazy, huh?
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Re: European Union
Two Catholic Church scandals in the Netherlands:
1. Child sex abuse in the Dutch Catholic Church
2. Church controversy over gay Carnival Prince
This 2nd controversy is solved now, the first will be more difficult, I'm afraid.
Two Catholic Church scandals in the Netherlands:
1. Child sex abuse in the Dutch Catholic Church
2. Church controversy over gay Carnival Prince
This 2nd controversy is solved now, the first will be more difficult, I'm afraid.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Re: European Union
Two scandals in the news, in one week, is quite a beating for the church. The first is actually a huge scandal, not about one person or something.
"Last week alone, there were over 200 new complaints of abuse within the Roman Catholic Church in the Netherlands. As in the United States and Ireland, it no longer appears that an investigation into individual cases will be enough. A comprehensive explanation is needed in order to answer the question: how could this have gone on for so long?"
If Germany's scandal is bigger, then that's only because it's a bigger country(?)
Perun said:
Two scandals in the news, in one week, is quite a beating for the church. The first is actually a huge scandal, not about one person or something.
"Last week alone, there were over 200 new complaints of abuse within the Roman Catholic Church in the Netherlands. As in the United States and Ireland, it no longer appears that an investigation into individual cases will be enough. A comprehensive explanation is needed in order to answer the question: how could this have gone on for so long?"
If Germany's scandal is bigger, then that's only because it's a bigger country(?)
