Re: European Union
Good! Protest all you want! That's what's important, the exercise of freedom of speech!
Good! Protest all you want! That's what's important, the exercise of freedom of speech!
European Politics
- Thread starter Forostar
- Start date
national acrobat
Ancient Mariner
Re: European Union
"Shariah is coming."
"Shariah is coming."
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Re: European Union
This is what happened at a Philadelphia university: video
(more background)
LooseCannon said:
This is what happened at a Philadelphia university: video
(more background)
national acrobat
Ancient Mariner
Re: European Union
Nick Griffin (BNP) is appearing on BBC's Question Time tonight; it'll be interesting to see if the audience and fellow panel members allow him to speak. Usually he gets eggs thrown at him while the police look on.
Nick Griffin (BNP) is appearing on BBC's Question Time tonight; it'll be interesting to see if the audience and fellow panel members allow him to speak. Usually he gets eggs thrown at him while the police look on.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Re: European Union
There's big speculation in government circles whether Dutch Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende will leave for Brussels to become the first president of the European Union.
That job would provide a welcome exit strategy for Balkenende facing criticism from within his own party regarding his performance. An important parliamentary inquiry into the decision-making process regarding our participation in the Iraq war will present its findings in January, plus local elections coming up soon as well. The inquiry is almost certain to find something damaging to the Balkenende and his party, so who knows they would much appreciate him being gone by the time it was released.
I'm afraid that when he leaves, there's a chance of new elections, giving Wilders another opportunity to become the biggest party.
edit:
By the way, the election for this new function is even less democratic than the election for a new Pope:
The candidates are unknown, and the EU governments decide who will be the one.
There's big speculation in government circles whether Dutch Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende will leave for Brussels to become the first president of the European Union.
That job would provide a welcome exit strategy for Balkenende facing criticism from within his own party regarding his performance. An important parliamentary inquiry into the decision-making process regarding our participation in the Iraq war will present its findings in January, plus local elections coming up soon as well. The inquiry is almost certain to find something damaging to the Balkenende and his party, so who knows they would much appreciate him being gone by the time it was released.
I'm afraid that when he leaves, there's a chance of new elections, giving Wilders another opportunity to become the biggest party.
edit:
By the way, the election for this new function is even less democratic than the election for a new Pope:
The candidates are unknown, and the EU governments decide who will be the one.
national acrobat
Ancient Mariner
Re: European Union
Yes, effected by the still to be ratified Lisbon Treaty, on which the UK people were promised a referendum which (suprise, suprise) never materialised. Very democratic indeed.
There's also perhaps equal speculation over here that Tony Blair will become that first president.
Forostar said:
Yes, effected by the still to be ratified Lisbon Treaty, on which the UK people were promised a referendum which (suprise, suprise) never materialised. Very democratic indeed.
There's also perhaps equal speculation over here that Tony Blair will become that first president.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Dutch government fell last night
The Dutch government fell last night, 4 o'clock to be precise. There have been some major disagreements and the last one was over extending Dutch military participation in Afghanistan.
If I may copy a news article, you'll get more insight into this, though I doubt if this will be understood abroad, because I feel kind of ashamed about it. How will all this influence our international relations? On the other hand I realize that the Netherlands have done a lot for Afghanistan, actually relatively seen we've done more than most other NATO countries. I heard that the only exceptions are the USA and the UK. For the rest we've invested a hell of a lot of work, money and soldiers. Now it's time for other bigger countries to take over. We'll be out before 2011. More than ashamed I feel worried. Worried, because we're in an economical crisis, and worried about a new order taking over... read on:
Dutch government falls over Afghanistan mission
The Dutch government has fallen as a rift between coalition parties over extending Dutch military participation in Afghanistan could not be healed.
"Later today, I will will offer to her majesty the Queen the resignations of the ministers and deputy ministers of the PvdA (Labour Party)," Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende told journalists.
News of the collapse came in the early hours of Saturday morning following 16 hours of crisis meetings and days of speculation that the differences between the coalition parties had simply become too great to bridge.
The stand-off began after Deputy Prime Minister Wouter Bos, leader of the Labour Party, drew a line in the sand over extending the Dutch mission in the southern Afghan province of Uruzgan - coalition partners wanted to consider this option after a specific request from NATO to do so.
This was Mr Balkenende's fourth cabinet. It was also the fourth time he failed to carry a coalition to the end of the full four-year term.
Uneasy coalition
Uneasy compromise typified the coalition from the beginning. The centre-right Christian Democrats (and its predecessors) had governed with the centre-left Labour Party before. But the two parties have trouble forming a stable coalition.
Balkenende IV was no exception. Difficulties were already apparent during the negotiations to form the government in the winter of 2007. All three coalition partners, the two larger parties plus the smaller Christian Union, had to compromise on major issues.
During three years of government, many decisions were made only after long disagreement inside the cabinet. These included plans to raise the government pension age, how long to try to keep government expenditures up in the wake of the economic downturn, and whether or not to keep investing in the development of a new fighter plane, the Joint Strike Fighter.
Uruzgan
The issue where a compromise could not be found – whether or not to extend the military mission in the unruly Afghan province of Uruzgan - was itself not new. The cabinet decided back in the autumn of 2007 to extend the mission to Uruzgan by two years.
But the Labour Party felt it could not compromise again on an extension of the military mission. The criticism of Dutch support for the invasion of Iraq, presented by the independent Davids Commission in early January, only reinforced the Labour Party's resolve.
Save face abroad
The fall of the government may, paradoxically, help the Netherlands save face abroad. At NATO headquarters, as well as in the United States, there is little understanding for the Labour Party veto of extending the military mission in Uruzgan. The Netherlands pulling out of Uruzgan is a source of irritation both in Brussels and Washington. The Netherlands even risks losing its hard-earned seat at the G20 meetings.
But a cabinet crisis is seen as a reasonable excuse, even if the end result - pulling out of Uruzgan - remains the same.
Unstable
Of perhaps greater consequence is what the fall of the cabinet means for Dutch politics. Nearly ten years ago, this country was shocked by the sudden rise of the populist politician, Pim Fortuyn, and even more shocked by his murder. More recently, the right-wing politician Geert Wilders underscores a long-term trend in Dutch politics: instability.
The Dutch electorate is famously fractured - no one party can ever hope to form a majority, and eight or more parties typically gain seats in parliament (there are currently eleven parties in the Dutch parliament). Plus, Dutch voters no longer identify very strongly with the traditional political parties.
This combination makes it possible for a Pim Fortuyn, or a Geert Wilders, to suddenly rise to prominence with the support of as little as ten percent of the population.
The Wilders factor
Geert Wilders has profited from the current political climate. And he will play a major role in the upcoming election, even if his Freedom Party does not become the largest party. Mr Wilders is a polarising figure, and the campaign is likely to feature a camp on the right that will consider governing in a coalition with Mr Wilders, and a camp on the left that rules it out.
But the major parties will not likely make up much of the ground they've been losing, and the next coalition could need four or more parties (in place of the usual two or three) to form a majority. During a time of economic recovery, the Netherlands is entering a period of political instability.
The Dutch government fell last night, 4 o'clock to be precise. There have been some major disagreements and the last one was over extending Dutch military participation in Afghanistan.
If I may copy a news article, you'll get more insight into this, though I doubt if this will be understood abroad, because I feel kind of ashamed about it. How will all this influence our international relations? On the other hand I realize that the Netherlands have done a lot for Afghanistan, actually relatively seen we've done more than most other NATO countries. I heard that the only exceptions are the USA and the UK. For the rest we've invested a hell of a lot of work, money and soldiers. Now it's time for other bigger countries to take over. We'll be out before 2011. More than ashamed I feel worried. Worried, because we're in an economical crisis, and worried about a new order taking over... read on:
Dutch government falls over Afghanistan mission
The Dutch government has fallen as a rift between coalition parties over extending Dutch military participation in Afghanistan could not be healed.
"Later today, I will will offer to her majesty the Queen the resignations of the ministers and deputy ministers of the PvdA (Labour Party)," Prime Minister Jan Peter Balkenende told journalists.
News of the collapse came in the early hours of Saturday morning following 16 hours of crisis meetings and days of speculation that the differences between the coalition parties had simply become too great to bridge.
The stand-off began after Deputy Prime Minister Wouter Bos, leader of the Labour Party, drew a line in the sand over extending the Dutch mission in the southern Afghan province of Uruzgan - coalition partners wanted to consider this option after a specific request from NATO to do so.
This was Mr Balkenende's fourth cabinet. It was also the fourth time he failed to carry a coalition to the end of the full four-year term.
Uneasy coalition
Uneasy compromise typified the coalition from the beginning. The centre-right Christian Democrats (and its predecessors) had governed with the centre-left Labour Party before. But the two parties have trouble forming a stable coalition.
Balkenende IV was no exception. Difficulties were already apparent during the negotiations to form the government in the winter of 2007. All three coalition partners, the two larger parties plus the smaller Christian Union, had to compromise on major issues.
During three years of government, many decisions were made only after long disagreement inside the cabinet. These included plans to raise the government pension age, how long to try to keep government expenditures up in the wake of the economic downturn, and whether or not to keep investing in the development of a new fighter plane, the Joint Strike Fighter.
Uruzgan
The issue where a compromise could not be found – whether or not to extend the military mission in the unruly Afghan province of Uruzgan - was itself not new. The cabinet decided back in the autumn of 2007 to extend the mission to Uruzgan by two years.
But the Labour Party felt it could not compromise again on an extension of the military mission. The criticism of Dutch support for the invasion of Iraq, presented by the independent Davids Commission in early January, only reinforced the Labour Party's resolve.
Save face abroad
The fall of the government may, paradoxically, help the Netherlands save face abroad. At NATO headquarters, as well as in the United States, there is little understanding for the Labour Party veto of extending the military mission in Uruzgan. The Netherlands pulling out of Uruzgan is a source of irritation both in Brussels and Washington. The Netherlands even risks losing its hard-earned seat at the G20 meetings.
But a cabinet crisis is seen as a reasonable excuse, even if the end result - pulling out of Uruzgan - remains the same.
Unstable
Of perhaps greater consequence is what the fall of the cabinet means for Dutch politics. Nearly ten years ago, this country was shocked by the sudden rise of the populist politician, Pim Fortuyn, and even more shocked by his murder. More recently, the right-wing politician Geert Wilders underscores a long-term trend in Dutch politics: instability.
The Dutch electorate is famously fractured - no one party can ever hope to form a majority, and eight or more parties typically gain seats in parliament (there are currently eleven parties in the Dutch parliament). Plus, Dutch voters no longer identify very strongly with the traditional political parties.
This combination makes it possible for a Pim Fortuyn, or a Geert Wilders, to suddenly rise to prominence with the support of as little as ten percent of the population.
The Wilders factor
Geert Wilders has profited from the current political climate. And he will play a major role in the upcoming election, even if his Freedom Party does not become the largest party. Mr Wilders is a polarising figure, and the campaign is likely to feature a camp on the right that will consider governing in a coalition with Mr Wilders, and a camp on the left that rules it out.
But the major parties will not likely make up much of the ground they've been losing, and the next coalition could need four or more parties (in place of the usual two or three) to form a majority. During a time of economic recovery, the Netherlands is entering a period of political instability.
Re: European Union
I predict this to be the first in a long line of governments to fall over Afghanistan. And in the face of people like Wilders, I'd say the Dutch are going to have a hard time with their democracy. But don't worry, the rest of us will join you soon enough.
I predict this to be the first in a long line of governments to fall over Afghanistan. And in the face of people like Wilders, I'd say the Dutch are going to have a hard time with their democracy. But don't worry, the rest of us will join you soon enough.
Re: European Union
The difference, of course, is that when our governments fall, new ones are elected. It's not quite like the USSR, is it?
The difference, of course, is that when our governments fall, new ones are elected. It's not quite like the USSR, is it?
Re: European Union
Maybe over there, but not in Canada…I don't think we will have a government fall over this sort of thing. What people want is leadership. A small percentage of people will always want a strong leadership that violates the rules, but as long as we have strong civic responsibility and strong civic education, that'll never be a majority.
Maybe over there, but not in Canada…I don't think we will have a government fall over this sort of thing. What people want is leadership. A small percentage of people will always want a strong leadership that violates the rules, but as long as we have strong civic responsibility and strong civic education, that'll never be a majority.
Onhell
Infinite Dreamer
Re: European Union
Speaking of Canada in a EU thread...
The UK is part of the EU even though it did not adopt the Euro and people need a different Visa to enter it.... Still, it is part of the EU.
When the UK sends troops into a conflict it is joined by troops from its commonwealth because they still hold allegiance to the Queen and that includes Australia, New Zealand and... Canada
Are commonwealths considered part of the UK? I am assuming "yes." And if so, are they considered part of the EU?
Speaking of Canada in a EU thread...
The UK is part of the EU even though it did not adopt the Euro and people need a different Visa to enter it.... Still, it is part of the EU.
When the UK sends troops into a conflict it is joined by troops from its commonwealth because they still hold allegiance to the Queen and that includes Australia, New Zealand and... Canada
Are commonwealths considered part of the UK? I am assuming "yes." And if so, are they considered part of the EU?
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Re: European Union
Onhell, the countries you mention are independent members of the Commonwealth.
Maybe you'll find this interesting:
(source)
The Kingdom of the Netherlands is a member of the European Union. However the Netherlands Antilles and Aruba, a separate autonomous part of the Kingdom, are not considered part of the EU, but rather have the status of overseas countries and territories (OCTs). Since citizenship is handled by the kingdom, and not distinguished for the three countries, citizens from all three countries are also EU citizens.
Bonaire, Saba and Sint Eustatius are to become direct parts of the Netherlands. The Council of Ministers of the Kingdom of the Netherlands agreed not to change the status of these islands with regard to the EU in the first five years of integrating these islands into the Netherlands. After these five years have passed, a re-evaluation of the islands' EU status is to take place. The islands thus will remain OCTs at least until 2014.
The Netherlands secured a provision in the Treaty of Lisbon that says that any Caribbean part of the Netherlands can opt for a change of status to Outermost Region (OMR) if they so wish, without having to change the Treaties of the European Union.
Onhell, the countries you mention are independent members of the Commonwealth.
Maybe you'll find this interesting:
(source)
The Kingdom of the Netherlands is a member of the European Union. However the Netherlands Antilles and Aruba, a separate autonomous part of the Kingdom, are not considered part of the EU, but rather have the status of overseas countries and territories (OCTs). Since citizenship is handled by the kingdom, and not distinguished for the three countries, citizens from all three countries are also EU citizens.
Bonaire, Saba and Sint Eustatius are to become direct parts of the Netherlands. The Council of Ministers of the Kingdom of the Netherlands agreed not to change the status of these islands with regard to the EU in the first five years of integrating these islands into the Netherlands. After these five years have passed, a re-evaluation of the islands' EU status is to take place. The islands thus will remain OCTs at least until 2014.
The Netherlands secured a provision in the Treaty of Lisbon that says that any Caribbean part of the Netherlands can opt for a change of status to Outermost Region (OMR) if they so wish, without having to change the Treaties of the European Union.
Re: European Union
The Commonwealth are fully independent nations, Onhell. We're not bound to go to war or anything like that - case in point, Iraq.
The toppling of these governments is going to be very interesting indeed. Foro, perhaps you can give us a rundown of the major parties in the Netherlands and what they stand for? Nothing major, just quick, and maybe your thoughts on the subject?
The Commonwealth are fully independent nations, Onhell. We're not bound to go to war or anything like that - case in point, Iraq.
The toppling of these governments is going to be very interesting indeed. Foro, perhaps you can give us a rundown of the major parties in the Netherlands and what they stand for? Nothing major, just quick, and maybe your thoughts on the subject?
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Re: European Union
Sorry, LC, this post turned out longer than I thought.
Well, let me mention most parties in the government. In red, the parties from the last government, which fell last night.
Parties on the left are:
SP (Socialistic party)
he party has a democratic-socialist ideology. In its manifesto of principals it calls for a society where human dignity, equality and solidarity are most important. Its core issues are employment, social welfare and investing in public education, public safety and health care. The party opposes privatisation of public services and is critical of globalization.
Groen Links (GreenLeft)
freedom, emancipation, green, social and tolerant.
PvdA (Labour Party)
Social-democratic political party. Core issues are employment, social welfare, and investing in education, public safety and health care.
In the middle:
D66 (Democrats 66)
Progressive, social-liberal and radical democratic political party.
On the right:
VVD (People's Party for Freedom and Democracy)
Conservative-liberal political party. The VVD is the most vocal supporter of private enterprise in the Netherlands—although supportive of the welfare state— and is often perceived as a more economically liberal party in contrast to the social-liberal Democrats 66.
Far Right:
PVV (Party for Freedom)
Breaks from the established centre right parties in the Netherlands like the People's Party for Freedom and Democracy with its hardliner assimilationist stance on the integration of immigrants—especially Muslim—into Dutch society. Otherwise, it votes consistently Eurosceptic. Strictly considered, the Party is not a political party like the others in the Dutch political landscape, since the organization has no open membership.
Christian parties:
Christenunie (ChristianUnion)
A Christian democratic party of Christian social inspiration. It combines a conservative point of view on ethical issues, with more centre left ideas on economic, migration, social and environmental issues.
CDA (Christian Democratic Appeal)
Center-right Dutch Christian democratic political party.
So CDA, PvdA and ChristenUnion formed the last government. CDA is the party of prime-minister Balkenende. It's the biggest party of the parliament. It had quite some conflicts with PvdA, the party of vice-minister, and Minister of Finance, Wouter Bos.
I agree most with the PvdA, on almost all issues. I have to confess I am even a member of this party. I am not active though, but I follow everything very well, and I vote for them in elections, that is, if they don't do very strange things. In the past (before they cooperated) Balkenende has called Wouter Bos someone who is not honest, and someone who changes point of view. This was repeated so often by various members of the CDA, that it became quite annoying (and exaggerating). The funny thing is that, right now, Wouter Bos does not change his plans (the agreement with NATO and the parliament was that Holland would stop military involvement in Uruzgan in 2010) but CDA does! And Bos was not allowed to speak openly about the subject. This week Bos had enough of it and spoke open about the issue. It was clear that Balkenende was not amused.
A peculiar role in the NATO request had CDA Minister of Foreign Affairs, Maxime Verhagen. He probably made NATO think that Holland would agree to extend the mission. There's a chance (we don't know for sure yet) that -in his contacts with NATO- he left out the objections of the PvdA.
So, the trust between the parties was broken and could not be mended anymore. The PvdA had offered alternatives (the use of F16's and development) but this was out of the question. So in the end it was only this:
A-The PvdA had to agree that Uruzgan would still be "on the table". If the PvdA would agree with that, after Bos calls in the media and parliament, it would make them very unbelievable. So out of the question.
B-The CDA and ChristenUnion had to move Uruzgan "from the table".
Both parties would not move. PvdA felt that they were mouthsealed about an issue which was agreed with NATO and the parliament. So the PvdA Ministers resigned. I think CDA didn't want to loose their face before NATO. But now the government has fallen, and since Afghanistan is a controversial topic, no new decisions can be taken by a minority cabinet (which will probably consist out of CDA and ChristenUnion). Which means Holland won't extend the mission anyway.
I really understand the PvdA's point of view: who wants to be in a government, mouth sealed, and not believable?
I understand that CDA wants to be loyal towards NATO, but I don't get why they were not open for alternatives.
Still, both parties tried to solve it, the last discussion took 16 hours, but in the end, it was adios.
Sorry, LC, this post turned out longer than I thought.
Well, let me mention most parties in the government. In red, the parties from the last government, which fell last night.
Parties on the left are:
SP (Socialistic party)
he party has a democratic-socialist ideology. In its manifesto of principals it calls for a society where human dignity, equality and solidarity are most important. Its core issues are employment, social welfare and investing in public education, public safety and health care. The party opposes privatisation of public services and is critical of globalization.
Groen Links (GreenLeft)
freedom, emancipation, green, social and tolerant.
PvdA (Labour Party)
Social-democratic political party. Core issues are employment, social welfare, and investing in education, public safety and health care.
In the middle:
D66 (Democrats 66)
Progressive, social-liberal and radical democratic political party.
On the right:
VVD (People's Party for Freedom and Democracy)
Conservative-liberal political party. The VVD is the most vocal supporter of private enterprise in the Netherlands—although supportive of the welfare state— and is often perceived as a more economically liberal party in contrast to the social-liberal Democrats 66.
Far Right:
PVV (Party for Freedom)
Breaks from the established centre right parties in the Netherlands like the People's Party for Freedom and Democracy with its hardliner assimilationist stance on the integration of immigrants—especially Muslim—into Dutch society. Otherwise, it votes consistently Eurosceptic. Strictly considered, the Party is not a political party like the others in the Dutch political landscape, since the organization has no open membership.
Christian parties:
Christenunie (ChristianUnion)
A Christian democratic party of Christian social inspiration. It combines a conservative point of view on ethical issues, with more centre left ideas on economic, migration, social and environmental issues.
CDA (Christian Democratic Appeal)
Center-right Dutch Christian democratic political party.
So CDA, PvdA and ChristenUnion formed the last government. CDA is the party of prime-minister Balkenende. It's the biggest party of the parliament. It had quite some conflicts with PvdA, the party of vice-minister, and Minister of Finance, Wouter Bos.
I agree most with the PvdA, on almost all issues. I have to confess I am even a member of this party. I am not active though, but I follow everything very well, and I vote for them in elections, that is, if they don't do very strange things. In the past (before they cooperated) Balkenende has called Wouter Bos someone who is not honest, and someone who changes point of view. This was repeated so often by various members of the CDA, that it became quite annoying (and exaggerating). The funny thing is that, right now, Wouter Bos does not change his plans (the agreement with NATO and the parliament was that Holland would stop military involvement in Uruzgan in 2010) but CDA does! And Bos was not allowed to speak openly about the subject. This week Bos had enough of it and spoke open about the issue. It was clear that Balkenende was not amused.
A peculiar role in the NATO request had CDA Minister of Foreign Affairs, Maxime Verhagen. He probably made NATO think that Holland would agree to extend the mission. There's a chance (we don't know for sure yet) that -in his contacts with NATO- he left out the objections of the PvdA.
So, the trust between the parties was broken and could not be mended anymore. The PvdA had offered alternatives (the use of F16's and development) but this was out of the question. So in the end it was only this:
A-The PvdA had to agree that Uruzgan would still be "on the table". If the PvdA would agree with that, after Bos calls in the media and parliament, it would make them very unbelievable. So out of the question.
B-The CDA and ChristenUnion had to move Uruzgan "from the table".
Both parties would not move. PvdA felt that they were mouthsealed about an issue which was agreed with NATO and the parliament. So the PvdA Ministers resigned. I think CDA didn't want to loose their face before NATO. But now the government has fallen, and since Afghanistan is a controversial topic, no new decisions can be taken by a minority cabinet (which will probably consist out of CDA and ChristenUnion). Which means Holland won't extend the mission anyway.
I really understand the PvdA's point of view: who wants to be in a government, mouth sealed, and not believable?
I understand that CDA wants to be loyal towards NATO, but I don't get why they were not open for alternatives.
Still, both parties tried to solve it, the last discussion took 16 hours, but in the end, it was adios.
national acrobat
Ancient Mariner
Genghis Khan
Ancient Mariner
Re: European Union
I don't want to rudely change the topic here, but what do you Europeans think of the Euro troubles in Southern Europe, particularly the riots in Greece? The government wants to increase taxes when the populace is already suffering.
I don't want to rudely change the topic here, but what do you Europeans think of the Euro troubles in Southern Europe, particularly the riots in Greece? The government wants to increase taxes when the populace is already suffering.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Re: European Union
Greece has been spending way too much money, according to the rules of the EU. That could even endanger the Euro itself. So, I agree with the taxes. I only hope that it will be done honestly, and that the rich pay more than the poor, but that's up to Greece themselves.
Is this typical English politeness?
"I don't want to be rude, but .... "
Greece has been spending way too much money, according to the rules of the EU. That could even endanger the Euro itself. So, I agree with the taxes. I only hope that it will be done honestly, and that the rich pay more than the poor, but that's up to Greece themselves.
national acrobat said:
Is this typical English politeness?
"I don't want to be rude, but .... "