DREAM THEATER SURVIVOR 2016: Results -> A Change Of Seasons wins!

Satisfied with the results?

  • Total voters
    10
Over the last 36 hours I’ve immersed myself in the Black Clouds and Silver Linings Program, and graduated with four listens (2 with in-depth analysis of lyrics). My final exam follows:

During this entire survivor I’ve been reevaluating my thoughts on these albums and I’ve been pleasantly surprised that most albums have received higher ratings. That is also true of Black Clouds and Silver Linings, although it is still (currently) my second least favorite DT album. Why? Because there’s not a single great song on it. There’s great melodies, some great instrumentals, but mostly the ideas just aren’t there. It’s mostly a lyrical problem, and mostly a Portnoy problem, but there’s some musical issues, too…

A Nightmare to Remember - God, that first half is just amazing stuff. The “beautiful agony” part is haunting and very pretty. The solos, however, go on for way too long. When amazing lead work drags down a Dream Theater song, something is wrong. Portnoy commits his absolute worst sin of all time in this song. “BY THE GRACE OF GOD ABOVE, EVERYONE SURVIVED, UGGGGHHHH!” There’s no reason this should be growled, these lyrics are upbeat. It literally makes no sense. Likewise, the last 3-4 minutes of the song make no sense. We come to the conclusion of the story - everything is fine, bruised but alive, they will always remember this - and then for some inane reason, the band jams heavy riff after heavy riff. Why? We’ve come to a positive conclusion, we shouldn't be hearing super-macho-devil riffs! The lack of synchronicity between concept and execution is so mind bogglingly terrible that I can barely process it. For such accomplished songwriters to show such a complete ineptitude of storytelling is shameful. 7/10, for the first half and some cool riffs.

A Rite of Passage - The first verse is full of annoying, oppressive vocal FX, but it’s also got a really cool groove. This song has one of DT’s catchiest choruses ever. I’d say that while Petrucci mostly fails with lyrics on this album, he greatly excels with melodies. The bridge of this song is completely and utterly tacked on and pointless. It’s good stuff, but it doesn’t fit at all. That transition back into the chorus is painful. It would have been a better song without it. 7/10

Wither - A nice little song that starts off sounding pointless and ends up rather poignant. It’s not their best ballad or their best simple song, but it’s very catchy and it’s solid all the way through - unlike most of this album. JLB’s bridge performance is great and I’m a sucker for a melodramatic guitar solo. 8/10

The Shattered Fortress - It’s great to hear so many of these riffs again and I’m sure this works better when connected with the previous pieces. But here we are again with the ill suited guttural vocals over uplifting lyrics! Doesn't make any sense. “I live with serenity now” = pummeling riff. “HAPPINESS!” = growled in anger. Come on, guys. You’ve gotta be smarter than this. It’s even more upsetting considering the previous four parts of the 12 Step Suite had a solid unification between music and lyrics. The vocal FX (lowered octave) during the mellow part is a waste. It could've been a really earnest, powerful moment for Mike to speak all those AA tenants quietly and resolutely as a subtle vocal layer. Instead: shitty voice fx pushed to the front louder than LaBrie. Fucking stupid. LaBrie kills it on this song, though. Those last few lines are great. 6/10

The Best of Times - Beautiful music, terrible and redundant lyrics. "Say 'day' one more time! I dare you Mike, say 'day' one more time!" This is, however, the most they’ve sounded like Rush since the debut. Overall, it's more boring and trite than it is emotive. 4/10

The Count of Tuscany - What’s that? Another song with astounding music, yet horrendous lyrics? It’s just atrocious, appalling stuff. This story is so mundane considering how cool the music is that I can’t understand how it made it past the conceptual phase. All of their previous epics have had a topic befitting the intense, complex, demanding music. This story could be summed up in two sentences - “I met a really creepy rich guy in Italy who made me feel uncomfortable. Turns out he's just weird and foreign, so I drank $18,000 wine with him.” Why is there pretty music and a dreamy soundscape section at the most "chilling" and "dire" part of the story? JP goes into the cellar where famed soldiers died in barrels of wine and he fears for his life...so naturally here's a solo duel, some uplifting riffs, and a droning seascape of beautiful whale sounds! JP needs to take a Storytelling 101 class (more on this 3 albums from now). Oh, and just when you thought Portnoy couldn’t be any more annoying, have you met MAH BROTHA?! However, all that said…the last 5 minutes may be the most beautiful thing the band has ever written. Absolutely gorgeous, enthralling melodies. This ending is responsible for at least 6 of the 8 points I give this song. 8/10

Final points:
  • Backing vocal mixing is so damn loud again! Why are backup singers louder than the lead singer, damnit?!
  • The storytelling on this album is pathetic. Especially considering they've done this before successfully with most of their epics (Octavarium and ITPOE come to mind). If you want a good example of what I'm talking about, storytelling in song format being synchronized, listen to Empire of the Clouds.
  • Where the actual fuck is JMX?! The Shattered Fortress is the only time I hear the bass on this album. I swear, Black Clouds is Myung’s …And Justice For All.

Album Rating - 6.6
(Previous rating - 5.0)
 
Yep, call me a sellout, but at least it's a complete song. The Shatter Fortress is a bunch of recycled riffs and mismatched emotional deliveries.

Overall, the 12 Step Suite would get a 9 or 10/10 from me. But released as they were, it's very top heavy in quality.
 
Sellout.

But isn't that how the 12 step suite was supposed to be? The best parts from the other songs in the suite?
 
But up until The Shattered Fortress they all introduced new bits, this one does very little to tread new ground. Repentance does just as little, but at least it's a drastic shift in dynamics. Again, reread my post, my biggest issue with this song (and the rest of this album) is the misguided nature of lyric delivery vs. musical underscoring.
 
But isn't that how the 12 step suite was supposed to be? The best parts from the other songs in the suite?
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Not really. At one point the 12 Step Suite was a bunch of really great songs that could be connected. Eventually it became a chore for the band just haphazardly pasting stuff together.
 
So a pretty big record store near me is closing and they've been having a big clearance sale. Picked up both the BC&SL and DT12 box sets at really good prices. I held off on going through any of them so I could save it for this survivor. So for this listen of BC&SL, I'll be listening to the vinyl version that was included in the box and give a little review of the box set overall. Worth noting that the vinyl version has The Shattered Fortress and Wither switched, will be interested to see how that affects the album flow, although admittedly I've only listened to this album in full a few times.

Side 1
I'm pretty sure this is the first and only time a DT album opened with a side long epic. I'd love to see them do that again some day, maybe with something a bit stronger than ANTR.
A Nightmare To Remember - I think this song really sums up the whole album. On the verge of greatness but falls short due to poor editing and questionable (to say the least) creative choices. Everything up to the solo section is awesome and then it all falls apart. The beautiful agony section is probably the best moment on the whole album and one of the greatest DT moments ever. It has an amazing buildup and a great chorus. You can also really hear JP on the chorus, instead of MP, which is rare for them. Wish he sang more like that on the recent albums. Everything leading up to the Beautiful Agony section is great too. The main riff is cool, lots of neat rhythms and it's a bit different for DT so far. It's dark and heavy but something about it works much better than most of SC.
Unfortunately, the song quickly takes a nose dive.
The instrumental section is so bad. The solos are forgettable and the riffs underneath are so generic. JP's solos continue to be disappointing, just like on most of Systematic Chaos, and JR's solos aren't very good either. The whole thing drags the song down in a major way.
The following unisons are OK but really don't add much to the song. I don't really mind the MP vocal section. He posted the original version of that part with JLB singing on his forum once and honestly the best version of that part ended up on the album, for better or worse. It definitely clashes with the lyrics but I can at least ignore that. I'll take it over one of the most boring instrumental sections in a DT song. From there it all just kind of drones on. It gets much better once JLB comes back in for the final chorus. It's melodramatic but whatever, that's what DT does best.
You also get the first blast beats in a DT song from MP. That part is cool and I like hearing something new.

Overall, I think the song is just way too bloated. If they cut it down to, say, 11 minutes, it'd be one of their best songs. I really want to love it and the first half definitely makes it worth listening to and even the ending is OK, but the middle section really drags it down.

Side 2
A Rite of Passage - I pretty much agree with what Knick already said word for word. The verses don't have good vocals but the groove underneath is cool and the chorus is good (the first time). It's also new lyrical territory for DT. It's all OK stuff, but I get bored of it quickly. But it goes from inoffensive but boring to bad when the instrumental section kicks in. More generic riffing and uninspired solos from JP and JR. The guitar solos are at least slightly better than the ones on ANTR, with some pretty good licks, but overall they fail to grab me the way his pre-8vm solos did. Same with JR's solos, better but still not very remarkable. I give him credit for experimenting with the bebot thing. He has come a long way since then. By the time the last chorus comes in, I'm so sick of the song to really get into it. It was already overstaying its welcome before the instrumental section and is just annoying at this point.

Overall, one of my least favorite DT songs. Would probably be in my Top 10 worst DT. It will get a vote.

The Shattered Fortress - This is a tough one. I enjoy it for what it is, but I think it's clear that they're all sick of the whole 12 Step Suite thing at this point (Portnoy included). I think they should've kept to 3 steps at a time and knocked it out in 4 songs. That said, it's enjoyable throughout and definitely brings the quality back to that high standard I hold DT to, for the most part. It suffers from similar problems as the rest of the album, but luckily since it's mostly self plagiarism you get the songwriting quality of the earlier albums. They're also at least creative with the arranging, putting vocal parts over riffs that were instrumental on earlier songs etc. That was actually a really cool touch. You really need to be familiar with the other 4 songs to appreciate this though. I remember hearing it for the first time and totally hating it because I hadn't heard the rest of the suite. It all just sounded random and disjointed. It still does, but I can at least hear a familiar riff and get some enjoyment out of that. It also works as a very satisfying conclusion to the suite if you listen to it all together*.

Unfortunately, this song doesn't survive the uninspired soloing curse. Once again, the solo sections for both the keyboard and guitar solos are so generic and dull. I hate how they just repeated the same riffs for every solo section on this. Remember when they'd play around with the form? I'm actually surprised they didn't throw another 'shrink and grow' as a call back to TGP. That would've been cool. It also doesn't help that the solos just aren't very good. JP's solo on this is probably one of the better ones on the album, but still meh.

MP's low voice is weird.

Love the reprise of TROAE.

They had to end with the Glass Prison riff. Awesome stuff.

One major misstep is actually the ending chord. Again, kind of speaks to this whole album's problem with relating words with music, but that chord is a diminished (flat 5) chord and found all over the suite. It's generally considered a dissonant chord and by raising the 5th a half step you get a perfect interval that's generally considered pleasant sounding (think Star Wars or power chords). The obvious thing to do is at some point turn that flat 5 chord into a a regular power chord or a major chord or something to give the music something conclusive to go with the lyrics. Given that these guys are such big music theory nerds, it blows my mind that they didn't think to do that. They even end on that diminished chord. It's nitpicky but I think it says a lot about how misguided and sloppy a lot of this album was.

Overall, it's really more of a medley than anything else but it's still enjoyable. It's hard to rate it in context of the album because I'm thinking so much of the rest of the suite, but I guess that's also a flaw because none of the other songs in the suite do that. They all complement their respective albums as well. This song is just like its own thing, switching it with Wither on the vinyl isn't even that big a deal because its placement on the album doesn't really matter. I can't think of any other DT album where manipulating the song order wouldn't have an effect. I won't vote for it now, but possibly next round.

Side 3
Wither - Not horrible, but a really generic ballad. I feel they wrote more interesting and genuine ballads both before and after this. I can't help but be reminded of a lot of the radio rock from around this time when listening to it. I get the impression that ever since signing with Roadrunner they've been making half hearted attempts at a big single. Luckily the last two albums didn't have that, so hopefully they've given up on it for good. The guitar solo is great though and totally Brian May. It's short, but for a brief moment it feels like JP is back.
Anyway, it's another least favorite DT track. It will get a vote.

The Best of Times - Wither actually flows nicely into this. It's ironic that this is MP's last lyrical contribution to the band and is pretty much the new Space Dye Vest by being a song that they'll never play live.
I like it. It's heartfelt and a much better ballad epic than TMOLS. About on par with Sacrificed Sons. I think the problem with the lyrics is that Portnoy didn't take the less is more approach with them. Compare this to Take Away My Pain or Another Day, which deal with similar subject matter but in a much more condensed and less literal (especially Another Day) format. Portnoy tends to write in a very literal way, which makes his songs less relatable on an emotional level. That being said, he wrote the lyrics for his dad and actually played the song for him before he died. So I can appreciate that we're not really the intended audience for the lyrics, but he opens himself up to criticism by putting it on the album whether he likes it or not.

Musically it's all enjoyable. Not something I go out of my way for but much more consistent in quality than any of the previous 4 songs. Also the guitar solo at the end is incredible. JP is back!

Side 4
The Count of Tuscany - Really the only great song on the album, but it more than makes up for the inconsistencies. JP's guitar playing is amazing, JR does some great subtle work, this really feels like DT back at their full strengths for the first time since 8vm. It's like they put all their effort into this song.
First of all, the first 3 minutes or so are incredible. Great melodies throughout and they really create a mood. Very Rush-esque. Even JP's guitar tone, if I didn't know better I'd guess they actually got Alex Lifeson to come in and play some of those parts. Just some really wonderful playing from everybody. It doesn't feel indulgent, everything is in service of the song. Then once it gets heavy, it actually feels right. They build into it really smoothly and it really gets me pumped. Love that verse riff.

Ok the lyrics. I have to admit this might be the first time I've ever been thrown off by the lyrics on my first listen. I usually pay more attention to the music on my first listen, even though I keep the booklet close by usually. The lyrics have been torn apart mercilessly over the years so I won't dwell on it much, but even half paying attention to the lyrics...they're bizarre, to say the least. MP being mixed so high doesn't help either.

But the music behind the lyrics and JLB's delivery is so good that it more than makes up for all of that. I love the chorus. It's so huge. It reminds me of some of their choruses from the I&W era, they really nailed that vibe.

The second verse is so awesome. I love the way JP hangs on that one chord.

Then the ambient section. I love how they continue to do different things with their big epics. For this one, there are no movements. It's just a standard structured song that happens to be really long. If you "zoom out" a bit, it's really just your normal form: intro/verse/pre chorus/chorus/verse/pre chorus/chorus/bridge/guitar solo/verse/chorus/outro. I give them major props for managing to stretch that to 20 minutes while keeping it interesting the whole time.

The guitar solo itself is really beautifully done. JP really gave his all to these last three songs (Wither/TBOT/TCOT). It's really atmospheric and relaxing to listen to. I don't know what relevance it has to the lyrics, but I really don't care. It's awesome. I also love the keyboard sounds underneath. Fun fact: this solo was developed live on the Liquid Tension Experiment reunion tour, during their cover of Rhapsody in Blue. I highly recommend checking that out.

Then it gracefully goes into a final verse. DT don't have a lot of truly quiet sections, but the few that exist tend to be very effective. This one included. JLB really nails the end here. Great buildup and ending.

Ranking:
The Count of Tuscany
A Nightmare To Remember (I still rank this highly because the first half or so is really amazing, on other albums it probably wouldn't rank so high)
The Shattered Fortress
The Best of Times
Wither
A Rite of Passage

Funny that @MrKnickerbocker rates this album higher than before because honestly I think I came out liking it a bit less this time. It's still a major step up from Systematic Chaos, but shares many of the same flaws. Particularly uninspired instrumental sections/solos and less than stellar performance from JLB on most songs. It also has its own problems, like the many bizarre creative decisions throughout the album and bloated songs. But it's also an improvement from SC in many areas. First of all, the dynamics are back. The soft parts on this album are incredibly effective and among DT's finest moments. They actually feel quieter and the buildups actually work. Granted I was listening on vinyl, so loud mastering isn't really a problem, but I don't remember ever having a problem with loudness from the CD. At least not so much that I feel fatigued halfway through.

I mentioned earlier that I rarely listen to this album in full and I was reminded why. This doesn't really have the flow of a unified album. Every song just seems so disconnected from the last and the order is really mostly interchangeable. It's just a slab of songs. That works for 99% of bands, but DT is one of those bands where the sequencing of an album can really make it something special. This just doesn't really have that. So not only is it a bit unrewarding as a full album, it's also really inconsistent. So you're better off just playing one or two songs from this and then calling it a day.

I feel like I've mostly been critical but I do like a lot of things about it. As far as the studio albums are concerned, this is probably DT's biggest missed opportunity. A little bit more time, refinement, and -dare I say- an outside producer may have made this one of their best albums of all time. The potential is all there. Some of the stuff on this album is among their best work. But it's also hidden beneath a lot of clutter.

Quick thoughts on the vinyl: It's good. I haven't heard the CD in some time so I can't really compare very well but it didn't seem like a major improvement. It seemed quieter than I remember the CD being, so that's good. The clarity was great for the most part, I could actually hear John Myung on some songs! The Shattered Fortress distorted a little toward the end but it was the end of the vinyl side so that was to be expected with something that loud. Everything else was fine.

Quick thoughts on the box set: Good for the price I got it for, would've been even better if I didn't already have the 3 CD thing. Now I've got an extra one to sell. :p The art print is cool and I got some use out of the mouse pad. You also get a DVD of isolated stems for the whole album which I'm really excited to play around with. Wish I had those a few years earlier when I had a remix assignment in an audio class! The main event is really the vinyl though. Not as loaded as the DT12 box set.
 
MrKnickerbocker said:
The Count of Tuscany - What’s that? Another song with astounding music, yet horrendous lyrics? It’s just atrocious, appalling stuff. This story is so mundane considering how cool the music is that I can’t understand how it made it past the conceptual phase. All of their previous epics have had a topic befitting the intense, complex, demanding music. This story could be summed up in two sentences - “I met a really creepy rich guy in Italy who made me feel uncomfortable. Turns out he's just weird and foreign, so I drank $18,000 wine with him.” Why is there pretty music and a dreamy soundscape section at the most "chilling" and "dire" part of the story? JP goes into the cellar where famed soldiers died in barrels of wine and he fears for his life...so naturally here's a solo duel, some uplifting riffs, and a droning seascape of beautiful whale sounds! JP needs to take a Storytelling 101 class (more on this 3 albums from now). Oh, and just when you thought Portnoy couldn’t be any more annoying, have you met MAH BROTHA?! However, all that said…the last 5 minutes may be the most beautiful thing the band has ever written. Absolutely gorgeous, enthralling melodies. This ending is responsible for at least 6 of the 8 points I give this song.
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This had me rolling. I wanna die in a barrel of $18,000 wine.

Where the actual fuck is JMX?! The Shattered Fortress is the only time I hear the bass on this album. I swear, Black Clouds is Myung’s …And Justice For All.
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He's pretty loud at the start of A Rite of Passage...
 
Black Clouds was the first DT album I ever listened to in full. I used to absolutely love it, but my opinion of it has slightly decreased over time. I find the six songs fall into 3 categories, with 2 songs fitting into each category.

Here is how I rank the songs 1-6

Amazing
1. The count of Tuscany: Incredible song. Among DT's very best, and definitely top 10 in my book.
2. The Best of Times: Extremely underrated song. The beginning is beautiful, and the last 3 minutes really show the greatness Petrucci is capable of. Quite possibly my favorite guitar solo.

Pretty Good
3. The Shattered Fortress: Great way to finish off the suite. Not quite as good as Prison or Soul, but better than Root and Repentance. I also really love the solo at the end. It was very cool seeing this song live.
4. A Nightmare to Remember: I'm in agreement with Knick and Mosh on this one. The beginning of the song all the way through the Beautiful Agony part is great, but the 2nd half really brings the whole song down for me.

Meh
5. A Rite of Passage: The chorus is catchy, and thats really the biggest thing the song has going for it. The instrumental part is completely unnecessary. It's just an average song, overall
6. Wither: Well it's better than Forsaken, I guess.

I know I'll for sure be voting for the bottom 2 songs, but I'm not sure yet if Nightmare will be getting a vote from me.

I hope to be ready with ADTOE in the next couple days.
 
Black Clouds and Silver Linings

"BY THE GRACE OF GOD ABOVE, EVERYONE SURVIVED!!!"

My heart doesn't bleed as much when I read all those negative things being said about Clouds, since I've always preferred SC and even though I might really like the album, this time I actually kinda understand if someone else doesn't. Probably the worst thing I can say about it is that it's mostly a re-hash of SC of sorts, because it doesn't really break any new ground and some of the moments are quite similar, at least to my ears. It also shares the curse of TFF in being quite "bottom-heavy" - I could listen to that sequence TSF - TCOT much more often than I'm in the mood for the first three songs, personally. And I really like the cover and the title, by the way.

Nightmare definitely isn't the best DT song, yet I think it's quite underrated. The first part up to Agony is quite cool (though Agony itself might be a tad overrated, IMHO). That second part... first of all, while they definitely have better instrumental sections, this one is surely not bad. It might be kinda standard and not really exceptional, but I still like listening to it. Now Portnoy's vocals, which everybody complains about... well... they are controversial, nah scratch it, they are at times downright funny. And it's cool! I really don't need to take the band (any band) that seriously - during this behemoth of an album, when I get back to Mike doing "Day after day..." I snigger. It's silly. Hysterical, even. And yet it's awesome. If you don't get me, too bad, I probably can't put it any better, but I can laugh at that part... and still have DT as my #1 band. Same with Symph X, by the way (COME OOOON HIT THE SWITCH, YA SONOFABITCH). You need your funny moments. Just like when Petrucci tries to sing TSCO on that demo - it's excruciatingly bad, yet I love him all the more because of it. Knicks is right - that "By the grace" part is completely crazy and not really explainable in any way considering the lyrics and the vocals and the dissonance between the two... but it makes me miss Mike, warts and all. See also below on Count. Oh, and blastbeats! (wanna win me over? Put some well-placed blastbeats in an otherwise non-extreme band - Symph X and its Kiss of Fire are another beautiful example)

Rite of Passage has probably the stupidest transition from the instrumental part back to the final chorus in the whole DT discography, but then again, I'm not the one to put down a song because of five seconds if the song itself has, like, eight minutes. Repeated listens made me appreciate the song a bit less than I used to, but that main part is very catchy and I even like the lyrics, though many hate those. That Bebot solo might be ear-shattering, but so what? I mean, how often do your musical heroes play on tablets? It also "breaks" the song a bit, in a good way, with how it contrasts with the "poppy" rest.

Wither is one of my favourite ballads - it has great lyrics, a very majestic, sorrowful atmosphere and is, like, a perfect song for the radio. Yeah, it borrows the intro from Lifting Shadows, but I don't care, since I never liked that song. TRUCCI RULEZ!

Oh, and

But like I said above, these three are quite good, but only from now on it gets interesting.

I can sorta-kinda-maybe get why Shattered is as underrated as it is. I get how many people might just hear shameless riff-recycling and thus laziness or lack of ideas or whatever. BUT! Try to listen to the suite as a whole. And tell me it's not amazing. Tell me Fortress is't a great finale. That it doesn't use the themes wisely. It does. It recontextualises the riffs, the melodies, uses them in a very different way and helps to put it into perspective. I also get how some people might find the lyrics way too... I don't know, unnecessary, but these last steps are actually very important and Responsible is an amazing ending to the whole suite. Just before writing this down, I relistened to the whole song once again and I still love it. The music, the lyrics, the energy, the heaviness. TSF has a hard spot, being conceptually somewhat obscure, building on the previous parts and being on a rather unpopular album. All the more reasons to shamelessly suport it.

The Best of Times... gee, I don't really know what to write. Putting this one down would feel weird anyway, it's so personal it doesn't even really fit DT in a way... but I still enjoy every second. The beginning with the violin is really cool, the first part reminds me of Elton John again (Love Lies Bleeding, in particular) and although the song might be a bit too emotional, even melodramatic, somehow it works. That final solo maybe even transcends Ministry. Such simple melodic idea, yet it works so splendidly.

And finally, Tuscany. This song is very well appreciated overall and that makes me happy, because it surely deserves it. It's poppy, heavy, interesting, beautiful. The lyrics are fine, really, quite unique actually in general (except you count Tori Amos and her Me and a Gun ...oh, sorry, is my humour too dark?), maybe somewhat mundane, but then again, you don't really have to have only complex and philosophical lyrics - these are maybe "normal", but I don't see any problem with it. Oh yeah, those Portnoy parts. Silly? Yes. But awesome. "Let me introduce ... MY BROTHER" "NO ACCIDENT" "Come on have a taste - A RARE VINTAGE" are our favourite call-and-response parts with my wife (yeah, we're weird - also if anyone in a movie or in TV series is a drunk or just drinks or is merely addicted to anything, we quote various parts of the 12SS to each other). That beautiful part is unspoilt (and it's a wonderful ending to not only the song, but also both the album and the Portnoy era), in fact those parts are quite far from each other. So why couln't the epic be a little silly and then beautiful? Yes, objectively it might be a problem and I don't force you to like it or to turn the blind eye... but you also cannot force me.

In general, I like the album. Like I said, I get if you don't, but it's still very enjoyable to me and gives me personally much more than Awake or I&W. And although creatively Portnoy leaving might have been a good thing, I still kind of miss him. People say how exhausted this album sounds to them, but I hear more energy than in DT12 and TA combined. But I'm weird. Would you actually listen to someone who has SC as his No 1? :p

So, the last album that will not get a vote from me in the first round. I'll try to write down my thoughts on ADTOE ASAP.
 
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Mosh said:
A Nightmare To Remember -
The instrumental section is so bad. The solos are forgettable and the riffs underneath are so generic. JP's solos continue to be disappointing, just like on most of Systematic Chaos, and JR's solos aren't very good either. The whole thing drags the song down in a major way.

The Shattered Fortress - Unfortunately, this song doesn't survive the uninspired soloing curse. Once again, the solo sections for both the keyboard and guitar solos are so generic and dull. I hate how they just repeated the same riffs for every solo section on this. Remember when they'd play around with the form? I'm actually surprised they didn't throw another 'shrink and grow' as a call back to TGP. That would've been cool. It also doesn't help that the solos just aren't very good. JP's solo on this is probably one of the better ones on the album, but still meh.
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I see this album and SC get a lot of praise for their instrumental sections and I can't help but feel that everyone is just blinded by wank. These solo sections are so bland compared to stuff in their back catalogue. Dream Theater used to be a band that wrote full musical passages which happened to have solos over them, and over time they gradually just become complacent in writing "background metal riffs" to repeat and modulate underneath showboating. This reaches it's peak on this album.

Mosh said:
One major misstep is actually the ending chord. Again, kind of speaks to this whole album's problem with relating words with music, but that chord is a diminished (flat 5) chord and found all over the suite. It's generally considered a dissonant chord and by raising the 5th a half step you get a perfect interval that's generally considered pleasant sounding (think Star Wars or power chords). The obvious thing to do is at some point turn that flat 5 chord into a a regular power chord or a major chord or something to give the music something conclusive to go with the lyrics. Given that these guys are such big music theory nerds, it blows my mind that they didn't think to do that. They even end on that diminished chord. It's nitpicky but I think it says a lot about how misguided and sloppy a lot of this album was.
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You've just explained my entire problem with this album using musical theory. It shocks me how the band made this same error on three of the six tracks here considering their mastery of music.

Mosh said:
The Best of Times - I like it. It's heartfelt and a much better ballad epic than TMOLS. About on par with Sacrificed Sons. I think the problem with the lyrics is that Portnoy didn't take the less is more approach with them. Compare this to Take Away My Pain or Another Day, which deal with similar subject matter but in a much more condensed and less literal (especially Another Day) format. Portnoy tends to write in a very literal way, which makes his songs less relatable on an emotional level. That being said, he wrote the lyrics for his dad and actually played the song for him before he died. So I can appreciate that we're not really the intended audience for the lyrics, but he opens himself up to criticism by putting it on the album whether he likes it or not.
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The fact that Take Away My Pain exists makes this song that much harder for me to accept. Petrucci, who I am often quick to criticize, wrote about this same subject in an absolutely beautiful away. It's literal, yet poetic, it's deep, but not trite. Portnoy's turn at the same bat is so much weaker. I feel like the band really needs to collaborate more with the lyrics. I get that they want to write from different perspectives, but why not have everyone do edits before committing to final lyrics for a song? In my opinion, every Portnoy song would have been better with some mystical peer-editing from John Myung.

Mosh said:
The Count of Tuscany - Then the ambient section. I love how they continue to do different things with their big epics. For this one, there are no movements. It's just a standard structured song that happens to be really long. If you "zoom out" a bit, it's really just your normal form: intro/verse/pre chorus/chorus/verse/pre chorus/chorus/bridge/guitar solo/verse/chorus/outro. I give them major props for managing to stretch that to 20 minutes while keeping it interesting the whole time.
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See, that's what bugs me so much about the ambient section. The Count of Tuscany is a pretty basic song structurally and, once again in conflict with the lyrics, the ambient section just feels tacked on. It feels like they knew the structure was too simple and said, "How do we break this up and make it proggggggg?"

Mosh said:
Funny that @MrKnickerbocker rates this album higher than before because honestly I think I came out liking it a bit less this time. It's still a major step up from Systematic Chaos, but shares many of the same flaws. Particularly uninspired instrumental sections/solos and less than stellar performance from JLB on most songs. It also has its own problems, like the many bizarre creative decisions throughout the album and bloated songs. But it's also an improvement from SC in many areas. First of all, the dynamics are back. The soft parts on this album are incredibly effective and among DT's finest moments. They actually feel quieter and the buildups actually work.

I mentioned earlier that I rarely listen to this album in full and I was reminded why. This doesn't really have the flow of a unified album. Every song just seems so disconnected from the last and the order is really mostly interchangeable. It's just a slab of songs. That works for 99% of bands, but DT is one of those bands where the sequencing of an album can really make it something special. This just doesn't really have that. So not only is it a bit unrewarding as a full album, it's also really inconsistent. So you're better off just playing one or two songs from this and then calling it a day.

I feel like I've mostly been critical but I do like a lot of things about it. As far as the studio albums are concerned, this is probably DT's biggest missed opportunity. A little bit more time, refinement, and -dare I say- an outside producer may have made this one of their best albums of all time. The potential is all there. Some of the stuff on this album is among their best work. But it's also hidden beneath a lot of clutter.
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To be fair, I've ranked every album higher, even the ones highest on my list. My overall affection for DT has grown since my last full discography listen. I still consider BC&SL and SC to be the absolute nadir of Dream Theater's songwriting career. I rank the debut as the lowest, but that can be chalked up mostly to the lack of LaBrie and immature songwriting (which is to be expected from a baby band).

The missed opportunity is what drives my dislike of this album, especially over SC. I agree that the dynamics are better here than on the predecessor, but the songwriting is more muddled. At the end of the day I'm going to praise songwriting above all else and while I don't particularly love either album, I think SC has more unified songwriting.

Detective Beauregard said:
He's pretty loud at the start of A Rite of Passage...
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Ah, yes, you're right! Make that 2 times I hear Myung on a 70+ minute album!

@JudasMyGuide - I get what you're saying regarding finding the humor in the songs. It's good for a band not to take themselves too seriously, Iron Maiden do it all the time. The difference is that Dream Theater have always presented themselves as incredibly serious on the record. Maiden is a band that is happy to record a silly song like "Holy Smoke" and film a video with them dancing around in fields of flowers, but Dream Theater has always presented an incredibly serious public image regarding their music. At live gigs the band loves to mess around with silly musical passages and jamming, but they don't do it on the records. So, for me to be okay with chuckling (or downright laughing hysterically) in the middle of a song that is meant to be serious just takes me completely out of the song. It shows poor creative control to me.
 
MrKnickerbocker said:
I see this album and SC get a lot of praise for their instrumental sections
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That is so weird. The instrumental sections are by far the biggest flaw of both albums. Going back to SC, I swear I heard the same rhythmic patterns in at least 4 songs' instrumentals.

MrKnickerbocker said:
See, that's what bugs me so much about the ambient section. The Count of Tuscany is a pretty basic song structurally and, once again in conflict with the lyrics, the ambient section just feels tacked on. It feels like they knew the structure was too simple and said, "How do we break this up and make it proggggggg?"
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Total opposite for me. If they wanted to go full prog they would've done another highly technical section like the middle of ITPOE or ANTR. If anything I think the lyric problems speak to how the band writes songs. Usually the lyrics are more of an afterthought, these songs all work fine as instrumentals.

MrKnickerbocker said:
To be fair, I've ranked every album higher, even the ones highest on my list. My overall affection for DT has grown since my last full discography listen. I still consider BC&SL and SC to be the absolute nadir of Dream Theater's songwriting career. I rank the debut as the lowest, but that can be chalked up mostly to the lack of LaBrie and immature songwriting (which is to be expected from a baby band).

The missed opportunity is what drives my dislike of this album, especially over SC. I agree that the dynamics are better here than on the predecessor, but the songwriting is more muddled. At the end of the day I'm going to praise songwriting above all else and while I don't particularly love either album, I think SC has more unified songwriting.
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It has definitely rekindled my love for this band a bit, but I'm also appreciating different things about them than I did a few years ago. I also value songwriting the most and while SC might've been better executed in that regard, I still prefer the songs on BC&SL despite their flaws.

JudasMyGuide said:
I can sorta-kinda-maybe get why Shattered is as underrated as it is. I get how many people might just hear shameless riff-recycling and thus laziness or lack of ideas or whatever. BUT! Try to listen to the suite as a whole. And tell me it's not amazing. Tell me Fortress is't a great finale. That it doesn't use the themes wisely. It does. It recontextualises the riffs, the melodies, uses them in a very different way and helps to put it into perspective. I also get how some people might find the lyrics way too... I don't know, unnecessary, but these last steps are actually very important and Responsible is an amazing ending to the whole suite. Just before writing this down, I relistened to the whole song once again and I still love it. The music, the lyrics, the energy, the heaviness. TSF has a hard spot, being conceptually somewhat obscure, building on the previous parts and being on a rather unpopular album. All the more reasons to shamelessly suport it.
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Yea, as an ending to the suite it really works fine. It might seem a bit bloated on the album, but when you look at it with the rest of the suite it's appropriate. After 40 minutes of music a 12 minute finale seems like a good proportion.
 
I can't stand SC and I can't stand BC & SL either. BC & SL has the better ideas and listenable moments, but it's overflowing with cheesiness and overwroughtness. I don't keep either of the albums on my iTunes at the moment.
 
I think the ambient section in Count is beautiful and really fits the atmosphere of the song. But where is an ambient section boring and doesn't fit? Octavarium -- and to a lesser extent -- Illumination Theory.

MrKnickerbocker said:
In my opinion, every Portnoy song would have been better with some mystical peer-editing from John Myung.
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I want everything I do in life to be peer-edited by John Myung.
 
A Dramatic Turn of Events has grown on me the most out of any album. I liked it a pretty decent amount when it came out, and my appreciation has skyrocketed as time went on.

I'll keep my thoughts relatively brief.

Starting with the best, Lost Not Forgotten and Breaking All Illusions are absolutely incredible songs. Definite 10/10s, with LNF being my favorite post-Portnoy era song. The part starting at 6:22 is one of my favorite moments in the history of the band. Both songs also feature some incredible Petrucci solos.

On The Backs of Angles is one of those songs that I just never get tired of. It may not be a groundbreaking song, but I can't find anything not to like about it.

It doesn't look like This Is The Life will survive in this game for very long, and that's a real shame. DT ballads have always been hit-or-miss with me; this one is a bullseye. I always find it stuck in my head well after listening to the album. It's right up there with TSCO with the best ballads overall.

Build Me Up and Beneath The Surface are the only songs on this album I don't enjoy particularly much.

My Ranking of ADTOE:
1. Lost Not Forgotten
2. Breaking All Illusions
3. On the Backs of Angels
4. This is the Life
5. Outcry
6. Bridges in the Sky
7. Far from Heaven
8. Build Me Up, Break Me Down
9. Beneath the Surface

Votes this round:
Honor Thy Father
A Rite of Passage
Wither
Raw Dog
Build Me Up, Break Me Down
Far from Heaven
Beneath the Surface
 
Some final thoughts on the Portnoy era songs:

Raw Dog - What the hell is this Djent Theater shit?! It's actually a really cool, heavy-as-balls instrumental, but if I didn't know it was DT I would have never guessed it. 6/10

Twelve-Step Suite - I've given Mike Portnoy some hell over his songwriting, and specifically parts 4 & 5 of this suite, but I must say the thing is a true crowning achievement. When combined into a single song, all five parts work really well. The final two segments are far better when combined into a full piece. I still don't love them, but they work in the overall scheme of things. I still think that each part goes downhill in quality until The Shattered Fortress, which is definitely better than Repentance. The solo duel at the end of This Dying Soul actually feels a lot more unnecessary in the context of the full suite, mostly because we're nearly 30 minutes in and the song simply hasn't let up at all...The Root of All Evil suffers the same consequence. I actually think that, when put together as a single piece, TROAE comes off sounding the weakest. After the onslaught of TGP/TDS, it would have been nice for something a little more toned down to lead us into Repentance. It feels like the most expendable section of the suite. Still, this piece is easily a 9/10 when taken as a whole and I'd rather hear this than long tracks like SDOIT, 8VM, or TCOT.
 
Oh man totally forgot to listen to Raw Dog. I think I've only heard this once. This is Petrucci's first time using a downtuned seven string, he'd do the same tuning (A standard) on Illumination Theory later. Haven't looked at the tunings on Astonishing so I'm not sure if he has used it again. I've never really understood how Petrucci decides to tune his guitars. He's used A tuning before on six strings, as well as B flat, which requires a bass neck and really heavy strings. It'd be easier to just tune down a 7 string, plus you'd have more range. If I ever got to meet JP again this is without a doubt the question I'd ask him. The song itself, meh. It's not bad but clearly a throwaway instrumental. Probably something they jammed out after a few hours. Will be voting for it.

BC&SL remains the only era with no live albums or dvds. No ytsejam releases, no fan club CDs, nothing. Portnoy has said that he had 2 ytsejam releases ready but for obvious reasons those never got released. I still really hope that someday they can at least come to an agreement with Ytsejam and keep those things coming in some form or another. Anyway, the closest thing you can get to a BC&SL live recording that I'm aware of is their Download live stream from that tour.

Never watched this and I don't plan to. Setlist is meh and JLB doesn't sound very good from what I've heard.

Before moving on to ADTOE there's the awesome Happy Holidays release, which they put out for free a few years ago. This is basically a compilation of the short tour they did with Mangini before ADTOE came out. It includes all the songs that didn't make it on LALP, including the first official live release of The Count of Tuscany. More of these please!

 
Yeah, this is the most interesting survivor I've ever been a part of thanks to the in-depth discussion. I think the amount of text is representative of the amount of music we're listening to thanks to these guys' encyclopaedic skills.

Thanks @Mosh for always keeping up with the fan club and bootleg stuff - I've never seen/heard most of this before!
 
I sorted all the threads in this subforum by replies and this one is 3rd most popular non-Maiden game and it's probably gonna be most popular once it's over. Which is a bit funny considering the first DT Survivor (in 2009) was abandoned due to lack of interest :P
 
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