DREAM THEATER SURVIVOR 2016: Results -> A Change Of Seasons wins!

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Also, does anyone else find it weird that the drum fill/break towards the end of the bridge in Endless Sacrifice and the drum fill/break right before the "Don't cross the crooked step" line in Honor Thy Father sound virtually identical? Like, you could cut those two songs together at that moment and musically it would work. Odd that they would put those two songs back to back on the album and not realize that.

Interesting comparison; they both have totally different dynamics/feels. One song has good lyrics and good music, while the other has great music and awful, petty lyrics. I hadn't noticed it before. This is most likely due to both songs being 10+ minutes and complex as hell. At that point, one drum fill = another drum fill (coming from a completely biased non-drummer).

I still love HTF for having no guitar solo, though. Honest question: Do you think Petrucci fought them for a solo on the song, or was just "meh" with his sololess role? I'm very curious, as it would speak volumes about his character.

DT's Number of the Beast album is actually really cool. It's weird to hear all of the songs with a keyboard trying to replace a guitar (especially during the solos - which I think would have sounded better if JR had just completely made up his own solos instead of trying to mimic Murray)

It's been years since I've listened to their covers, but does Petrucci only play Murray's solos? I feel like their wackiness would be better suited to Rudess's "I don't care because I'm not metal and am only a Russian monkey masturbating in a space station" attitude. Petrucci is so much more Adrian...
 
Interesting comparison; they both have totally different dynamics/feels. One song has good lyrics and good music, while the other has great music and awful, petty lyrics. I hadn't noticed it before. This is most likely due to both songs being 10+ minutes and complex as hell. At that point, one drum fill = another drum fill (coming from a completely biased non-drummer).

I still love HTF for having no guitar solo, though. Honest question: Do you think Petrucci fought them for a solo on the song, or was just "meh" with his sololess role? I'm very curious, as it would speak volumes about his character.

It's been years since I've listened to their covers, but does Petrucci only play Murray's solos? I feel like their wackiness would be better suited to Rudess's "I don't care because I'm not metal and am only a Russian monkey masturbating in a space station" attitude. Petrucci is so much more Adrian...

1. No, but for real: the drum fills sound very similar. With the same type of musical build-up.
2. I'm sure Petrucci fought for it, but Portnoy badgered him and fought harder and Petrucci just gave up so he could sleep with a bottle of Advil.
3. No, I think Murray's solos are mainly played by Rudess, as you say. I honestly can't say I was listening closely enough to know exact solos, though. Adrian certainly fits JP more.
 
I would go as far as saying that not having a guitar solo was Petrucci's idea. Portnoy starts recycling drum fills on ToT.

I like Octavarium a lot. I like that they followed up an incredibly heavy album with something a little more melodic and (gasp) commercial sounding. It's not as good as the previous three, but it's still very enjoyable. I appreciate that it's different. The songs on here are among the band's most simple, yet they share the same disc as the immense title track. Despite being really straightforward for the most part, the band still experiments with odd time signatures, alternate tunings, and Portnoy plays some really complicated beats which give the simpler songs some extra excitement. There's very little soloing or crazy instrumental sections, even the title track only has one major instrumental section. The band are focused primarily on songwriting and proving that they aren't just another by the numbers technical metal band.

I also really love the concept. The "nuggets' are really subtly done to the point that I find myself still discovering new things about it today. The idea of structuring the album like a chromatic scale was really cool and they executed it perfectly. Sonically there's a lot of atmosphere involved with the album, with all the ambient sounds but also the way the songs were actually produced. The music feels really "open" in a way that ToT and Systematic Chaos don't. The music really breathes on this album.

This is the end of DT's golden age for me. They've had good albums since then, but as far as I'm concerned, the run from I&W to Octavarium is their finest work and for the most part hasn't been topped. DT12 comes close though. I'm not sure if it's better than Octavarium, I'll get back to that when I listen to it again.

Since the songs are all pretty straight forward, there isn't a lot to say, so this will be pretty brief:

Root of All Evil - Awesome song, better than This Dying Soul but seriously out of place in context of the 12 Step Suite. But as a song it's really cool. I like the chorus and the This Dying Soul reprise is awesome. The drums are super over compressed but something about that works for this song. I also think JLB gives a solid performance.

Here's something nerdy: The first two songs in the 12 Step Suite are primarily in B minor, The Root of All Evil is in F Minor, which is the tritone of B, or the famous Devil's Interval. F diminished is also the chord that TDS ends on, so it's cool how they managed to connect TROE to the rest of the suite by giving it a much needed key change and also managing to make it fit with the album.

The Answer Lies Within - Another great ballad. Just a pleasant song to listen to. I really like the Octavarium reference before the bridge. Good song.

These Walls
- A song that really manages to combine heaviness with the sense of melody on the album. Really dark but uplifting at the same time. I like it but I have to vote for something and this is only my 6th favorite.

I Walk Beside You - Awesome song. One of my favorites. The band showing restraint by not having an instrumental section or solos in this song really helps it. The bridge going into the key change is an awesome moment.

Panic Attack - Heavy but in a different way than ToT. They really captured the sense of urgency and despair associated with a panic attack in the music for this song. The 5/8 time signature gives it a really "rushed" feeling. You can ignore the lyrics and still get it. I was initially surprised that JP wrote the lyrics to this one. It seems much more like an MP song to me (think Constant Motion) and MP's vocals are pretty prevalent in it. The instrumental section is nuts. It has that thing I like where MP changes the accents around to give the feel of a different time sig on the same riff. Also an homage to Maiden toward the end. Good song, although it is among the weaker songs and will be getting a vote.

Never Enough - The weakest song on the album. First of all, the elephant in the room: I think MP often gets more criticism than he deserves (though he also often brings a lot of it on himself) so I frequently try to defend him and typically I'm fine with his lyrics. I can't defend him on this one though. I think writing songs bitching about a group of fans is in bad taste. Yea sometimes fans act entitled and ungrateful (we see that constantly on this forum), but frankly that's not the artist's call. MP sounds whiny and like a spoiled brat in this song. In retrospect, the "what would you say if I walked away" bit is ironic, considering he did walk away and the band is doing just fine without him.

But that's the lyrics and I can usually disconnect myself from them easily. Musically the song isn't bad, but a bit generic. I like the rhythm being played under the vocals in the first verse It has one of the few technical sections on the album, which is pretty Muse-y. The part after the guitar/key duel at around 4:45 reminds me of the Raimi Spiderman soundtrack. The whole thing is a bit of a precursor to Prophets of War, which I actually don't hate. At least I don't remember hating it. We'll see what happens. :p

This gets a vote.

Sacrificed Sons - I actually used to dislike this song a bit. I thought the instrumental section was horribly out of place and contributed nothing to the song. Then one day it finally clicked with me. The lyrics muddle up the narrative a bit, but the instrumental section is actually depicting the attack itself. It's out of place, it takes you by surprise, it's chaotic. It works. I wouldn't describe it as "wanking". Especially considering it's hardly technical. Especially on JP's side, his solo is mostly just making noise. They're setting a mood and telling the story with the music, in a way that's more effective than the actual lyrics (which are still good). My favorite part is when it finally goes into that awesome guitar melody with orchestra. The riffs are also really cool. I'd be interested to know how this song was written, considering they jam first and the lyrics are more of an afterthought. I wonder if there was more collaboration with JLB on this song. It's a very atmospheric tune and a classy tribute to 9/11 (from native New Yorkers with lyrics by a Canadian). The lyrics, like most of what JLB does, are thoughtful and I think it was good that they waited a few years before doing something like this, instead of coming up with some knee jerk reactionary song (I'm looking at you Iced Earth).

Octavarium - Now we get to the good stuff. This is my favorite DT song and possibly my favorite song of all time. Everything about it is perfection and has pretty much all the qualities I look for in a good song. It's the only DT epic that truly feels like a journey, while also being undoubtedly a single entity. I even love the ambient stuff at the beginning, but I'm a sucker for ambience anyway. It's an obvious homage to Floyd, but they DTified it very well. As soon as the song gets going with the main theme, it's nonstop awesomeness. I also like that this song takes a bit of a time to get going. It really builds up and the finale is really satisfying as a result. This is something DT never did with their previous epics and they never did again. The 24 minutes fly by I also like how unified everything feels. There's no "Solitary Shell" moment where the song stops feeling like a single piece and starts to feel more like a medley.
I don't usually do this, but I'm going to talk about the individual parts a bit:

Someone Like Him: From the flute solo to the twelve string guitars, this is one of the few DT moments that's taken from the Genesis playbook. It does a great job at setting the mood for the rest of the song. I also really like Myung's bass sound on the whole song. He doesn't do anything flashy but he has a nice tone and gives everything a nice foundation.

Medicate: Awesome bass intro and one of my favorite Portnoy beats. It's a good example of what I was talking about earlier, throwing a cool complicated groove underneath a simple tune to give it a bit more excitement. Not that it needs more excitement. It's a great vocal melody. The chorus is one of my favorites in the DT catalog.

Full Circle: This part starts with an authentic mini moog solo from JR, one of his finest moments. Awesome solo. The lyrics don't make any sense, but I don't care. The references are cool and I discovered Spock's Beard because of it. There's a sense of urgency to this part that I just love. The real treasure in this part is, of course, the instrumental section. Possibly my favorite DT instrumental section. It's incredibly written. It has a main theme, a structure, it's not just mindlessly stitched together. You can tell there was a thought put into it. The 4/4 to 7/8 (Zeppelin homage) drum beat is another one of my favorite Portnoy beats and the unison there is insane. Every time the song gets to this section I'm at the edge of my seat the entire time.

Intervals: They previously attempted something like this on A Change Of Seasons but I think it's more effective on here. The buildup is intense and gives me chills. The samples are a really cool touch and I like how it brings the whole album together. JLB nails the end (he also hits his highest note).

Razor's Edge: A fitting end that doesn't feel forced. There's no other proper way to end such an immense song. Every epic they've done since then is really just trying to rewrite this part, but they'll never top the original. It's huge and, once again, gives me chills every time. Great solo from Petrucci, complemented by the orchestra. Love the french horns at the end.

Actually haven't listened to that song in a long time. Was giving it (and DT as a whole) a break until now. It's still the best.

A perfect cap to DT's golden age.

Ranking:
Octavarium



I Walk Beside You
The Root of All Evil
The Answer Lies Within
Sacrificed Sons
These Walls
Panic Attack
Never Enough
 
Here's something nerdy: The first two songs in the 12 Step Suite are primarily in B minor, The Root of All Evil is in F Minor, which is the tritone of B, or the famous Devil's Interval. F diminished is also the chord that TDS ends on, so it's cool how they managed to connect TROE to the rest of the suite by giving it a much needed key change and also managing to make it fit with the album.
I always wondered why they did it and now it finally makes sense! Thank you!!!

I still think they should have played it on a 7 string. But it's an amazing song.
 
I play it on a 7 string. It's very easy to transpose. Not sure why JP didn't do it that way.
 
I guess I've never tried it on the 7 yet, I've always followed the tabs and stuck to the 6. I'll have to try that later.
 
Razor's Edge: (...) Every epic they've done since then is really just trying to rewrite this part, but they'll never top the original.

Interesting to look at it this way. The Count of Tuscany still has the best ending of any DT song, imo, and Illumination Theory is very good as well. I guess the conclusions to their epics tend to be awesome in general.
 
They've had some some good ones. I love the end to The Count and (especially) Illumination Theory.
 
Here's a list of my favourite DT endings that I really like! In order of release!

Note: There's a lot of them so get ready!

The Killing Hand
Pull Me Under
Metropolis Pt 1: The Miracle and The Sleeper
Learning To Live
A Change Of Seasons
Trial Of Tears
Finally Free
The Glass Prison
In The Name Of God
Octavarium
The Shattered Fortress
The Count Of Tuscany
Breaking All Illusions
Illumination Theory
Three Days
A New Beginning
Astonishing

...and now I'm done.
 
Re: These Walls - it's weird that they would write a song about tearing and breakin downs walls on this album and NOT have it be part of the 12 Step Suite, considering that's been such a recurring lyrical theme.
 
Here's a list of my favourite DT endings that I really like! In order of release!

Note: There's a lot of them so get ready!

The Killing Hand
Pull Me Under
Metropolis Pt 1: The Miracle and The Sleeper
Learning To Live
A Change Of Seasons
Trial Of Tears
Finally Free
The Glass Prison
In The Name Of God
Octavarium
The Shattered Fortress
The Count Of Tuscany
Breaking All Illusions
Illumination Theory
Three Days
A New Beginning
Astonishing

...and now I'm done.
5 favorite DT endings, 3 least favorite intros
 
Re: These Walls - it's weird that they would write a song about tearing and breakin downs walls on this album and NOT have it be part of the 12 Step Suite, considering that's been such a recurring lyrical theme.
I actually assumed These Walls was the 12 Step Suite song of the album before I first listened to it.
 
I actually assumed These Walls was the 12 Step Suite song of the album before I first listened to it.

Same here. It's rather confusing on the surface. Honestly until I turned on the album today I always thought it was. Apparently I never paid much attention to the 12 Step Suite beyond the first two songs.
 
I made an edit of the songs together awhile back, the way I would imagine them played live. It was a fun thing to listen to once, though definitely exhausting.
 
I made an edit of the songs together awhile back, the way I would imagine them played live. It was a fun thing to listen to once, though definitely exhausting.

I have that as a playlist and I absolutely love it! Though on one hand, I really like listening to the suite as a whole, however the fact these songs were originally on different albums spread out across the 7 years gives it a more "epic" feel in restrospect, when I listen to it. Very weird feeling.
 
I very much look forward to the video of Portnoy doing it, although I always hoped that there would be an eventual DT reunion for that.

Just finished the DVD of their performance of Dark Side of the Moon. Pretty good version and probably the most appropriate album for the band to do, out of the ones they picked. It showcases all the members pretty well and JLB sounds good. I also noticed the lighting was really dark, which I found interesting because it was filmed at the Hammersmith and the Beast on the Road video also has lighting issues. Is it difficult to film there?
 
In theory, probably yes. But it also has that Space Dye Vest quote near the end :p :D
And it's also connected to Lie. It's a lyrical precursor and also in B (mostly) but has nothing else in common with the songs in the 12 Step Suite.

Edit: I don't think Portnoy wanted The Mirror to be seen as a prologue to the suite, since they never threw in any callbacks to it. Given how obsessed Portnoy is with that sort of thing and how easy it would be to insert the main riff somewhere, I think he consciously avoided that.

I say Portnoy specifically because that is generally his department and he was especially close to these songs, it's not that I think the other guys had little to do with the composing.
 
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The Answer Lies Within - Another great ballad. Just a pleasant song to listen to. I really like the Octavarium reference before the bridge.

I have to admit that I'd never heard that until you mentioned it. Very cool nugget.

The instrumental section [in Panic Attack] is nuts. It has that thing I like where MP changes the accents around to give the feel of a different time sig on the same riff.

A musical "trick" used far more in Symphony X than Dream Theater, and one of my favorite things to do when writing music.

Musically the song [Never Enough] isn't bad, but a bit generic. I like the rhythm being played under the vocals in the first verse It has one of the few technical sections on the album, which is pretty Muse-y. The part after the guitar/key duel at around 4:45 reminds me of the Raimi Spiderman soundtrack. The whole thing is a bit of a precursor to Prophets of War, which I actually don't hate.

I actually love Rudess's synth sound in this song (you won't hear me say that often). It has this "Metroid" feel, or some other video game -- maybe the original Doom in the unison? Whatever is going on, I like it. And the Muse influences are so painfully blatant that I'm surprised there wasn't a lawsuit. Too bad the vocals and lyrics in this song are trash.

Someone Like Him: From the flute solo to the twelve string guitars, this is one of the few DT moments that's taken from the Genesis playbook. It does a great job at setting the mood for the rest of the song. I also really like Myung's bass sound on the whole song. He doesn't do anything flashy but he has a nice tone and gives everything a nice foundation.

Myung actually has some really cool lead stuff throughout this section that's quite difficult to hear because it's in a higher octave and blends in with the guitars. He also plays some pretty sweet harmonics in Medicate.

Razor's Edge: A fitting end that doesn't feel forced. There's no other proper way to end such an immense song. Every epic they've done since then is really just trying to rewrite this part, but they'll never top the original.

This I will agree with, except for Count of Tuscany (my favorite ending to a DT epic, just behind Illumination Theory). With Octavarium they hit that big grandiose ending that they just can't seem to get away from, although it really does work here. In Six Degrees? Not so much.

I actually assumed These Walls was the 12 Step Suite song of the album before I first listened to it.

Me too, especially considering it was the 3rd track and I figured they were going for a numbers theme with This Dying Soul being 2nd and Glass Prison being 1st.
 
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