American and European Metal

Onhell said:
Great post Forostar. I think there is a big difference between the two. It is hard to explain, but if you listen to Dark Tranquility and In Flames and then listen to say... Atreyu (an American Band), Avenged Sevenfold (they don't do death metal vocals, but they do have a "metalcore" sound) the styles are easily distinguished. Not to mention I REALLY like the aboved mention bands, specially Avenged Sevenfold's latest The City of Evil. Atreyu does have that Emo look, but they have a very heavy and VERY metal sound.
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Well, Killswitch Engage and (probably way) more American bands have started to add melodic guitar harmonies in their work. They're more comparable with the "Gothenburg"-bands, or melodic death metal bands. My point is that it's good to realize where it comes from. The Scandinavians were and still are the innovators of this genre.

I find it difficult to accept that Bruce Dickinson is a huge fan of Killswitch Engage (he started to know them because his kids LOVE them), while he almost ignores the European "harder" metal scene.

I understand him when he says that the singer of KE is very good, and that this is for him the reason that KE is the new leader in the scene. But looking purely at the music, European bands have more to offer, when we look at this particular genre/style. At least they shouldn't be skipped so easily. I wonder if he is aware about that. Looking at his playlists, I'm afraid he's not.

By the way, more and more quality bands from Danmark start to pop up now as well.

My current favourite: The Arcane Order -->

http://www.myspace.com/thearcaneorder
Beware, this is way faster stuff (and more intense)! Outstanding drums and melodic guitar solos!
 
Well, he is getting old hahahaha. And it's funny that you say people are ignoring the Scandinavian scene, because my metal buddy here in the States rags on me because since three years ago or so I've strictly stuck to European (mainly power) metal bands ignoring the american scene completely hehe. Thanks to him I discovered Atreyu, Avenged Sevenfold and Sevendust (from atlanta with black frontman, unheard of since living color). All great bands with heavy 80's influence, a good resurgance of classic metal. Thank god since I though Nu metal had taken a hold of North American headbangers. I completely agree that Scandinavia, mainly Sweden though has been at the forefront of many metal subgenres for A LONG time now.
 
Onhell said:
Sevendust (from atlanta with black frontman, unheard of since living color).
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There has been a couple that I can think of - Fishbone and 24-7 Spyz. Living Colour, I believe, started before both of these two bands.
 
Metalist Magazine: Back to "Rise of the Tyrant", from first impression I can definitely say it goes back to the days of "Wages of Sin" with many great melodic lines, but also much more aggressiveness. What made you do this sort of throwback, rather than continue what you developed with "Anthems" and "Doomsday"?

Angela: I think it's just something we have preferred. There are so many bands looking for the modern sound and I think that people got really tired of it, of over-produced keyboard driven stuff. You know, honest rock and metal should be with guitars only and that’s what we wanted to bring back, that's what ARCH ENEMY is really about. Especially with Chris coming back, it's just the brothers, a lot of guitar harmony, lots of solos and that's what makes metal cool — not all the synthesizers and new bullshit that has taken over, and especially with a lot Swedish bands trying to sound American, we're so bored with that. We just want to sound really Swedish... [Laughs]... really European, and really basic metal. No compromise, no stupid clean vocals and all this crap, we just want to be pure fucking metal. Fuck all this pop death metal! [Laughs]... I'm so tired of that, everybody is cutting their hair short and having this keyboard player on stage. That's not metal.

source:
http://www.metalist.co.il/InterviewPriv ... 1&lang=eng
(recent interview with: Angela Gossow & Christopher Amott, Arch Enemy)
 
Hmm, I have to say I find her point of view rather ignorant, specially coming from someone in the business. She is personalizing what she persives to be the current trend in European metal and saying that because they don't like it, it must suck. Well Fuck them. It once again comes down to tastes, if they don't like the keyboard in their music, fine, whatever floats their boat, but that doesn't mean that band that do use it are "less" or not metal. I hate to say it, but she does come across as rather narrow minded.
 
I agree with you, Onhell, and I'm sure she must have said it a bit too simple.

At the same time I confess that she knows quite a lot about metal (having been a journalist, she did a lot of interviews and she knows many death metal bands, also from the past), she has been in the States quite often. She must have noticed that a lot of American bands sound and look the same (at least in her ears and eyes). This "trendy" kind of copying is something I dislike as well.
 
OK. Because this thread already exists I decided to "reboot" it with the following which I'm sure will generate quite the debate.

I've been listening to Atreyu, Avenged Sevenfold and Mastodon to name a few of the "new" American Metal bands. All three, in my mind fall under different metal circles, those being "Screamo," "Metalcore," and I think more thrash/groove than metalcore (Mastodon). In doing some reading on said bands they are lumped together in what wikipedia claims to be The New Wave of American Heavy Metal. A movement hearkening back to the NWOBHM in the very least in the sense of bringing (arguably) metal back into the mainstream. I believe it was mentioned in the Death of Hard Rock thread, that the NWOBHM lumped together rather different bands (from Maiden to Def Leppard) and I believe, just with these three bands as examples (Trivium is mentioned too), that the NWOAHM is doing the exact same thing.

What I find interesting is that not too long ago I remember reading somewhere about a "Second Golden Age of Heavy Metal" mostly exploding from Europe, Scandinavia, to be more accurate. These bands being mostly power metal bands in the likes of Sonata Arctica, Hammerfall, but Melodeath and Death Metal being quite prominent.

My point? it seems that we have a new American Vs. European metal scenario. But rather than cultural/lyrical content we have two alleged movements with one common result, the return of Metal to mainstream attention... or is it just a metal head's daydream? 
 
Whether this is coincidental or not I don't know, but the rise and fall of metal in the mainstream has always seemed to coincide with the ups and downs of Maiden. Like I say, it could be coincidental but it could also be the fact that Maiden has either spearheaded it - or simply benefited from it.
 
I think the term New Wave of American Heavy Metal is quite ridiculous because, 1. some people don't even consider all those bands proper metal, and 2. they've risen far more in America than Europe.  I think it's rather pointless to compare it to the NWOBHM because the effect of these new bands is far from the groundbreaking effect the NWOBHM had.  In Europe, I agree there is an expansion of metal again, but this new expansion is not spearheaded by those new American bands, but more by old European bands.  A lot of 80s and 90s bands have made it big, done reunions, etc, with the best example being Maiden (as Albie pointed out).  They are, however, mostly European.

I'd agree with naming it "the second golden age of heavy metal" rather than a new wave of American metal, though.  It's not a new wave, because there is very little innovation in the European metal scene of today.  It's more of old bands becoming popular again.  They haven't been away except in the eyes of the public.  It's also not so much of a wave as a gradual development, and I think only towards the later half of this decade has metal really resurfaced.

Looking back I guess we do agree on some things, though.  Maybe I misunderstood some of your points.  But bear in mind these are just my observations and speculations based on my own experience and the internet.
 
I think the term NWOAHM may be valid for American fans of those bands in the sense that those bands are gathering influences from European metal and presenting them to young metal fans here who have not heard the European innovators.

I also think it's a little premature to pass judgement on the idea of a NWOAHM, especially if you're comparing it to the earlier British phenomenon. Since so much time has passed, we can clearly and easily see how the Brit metal ultimately changed all of metal forever. With the American bands, we have yet to see if they will create any lasting influence. They might, or they might not.

So the NWOAHM still seems to me like more of a marketing gimmick, but it may turn out to be more if we give it time.

But they're all on their last chance! If anyone covers "Holy Diver" again, they must all be destroyed!
 
SinisterMinisterX said:
But they're all on their last chance! If anyone covers "Holy Diver" again, they must all be destroyed!
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Ugh, I saw that live...  They massacred it.

And I don't mean to imply that I've been willingly to a Killswitch Engage concert.  They were playing at a supposedly metal festival. :down:
 
SMX and I were watching Download 2007 live and chatting on MSN, and it went kinda like this...

"Did he...?"
"Is that..."
"They're NOT."
"Oh.  My.  God."
"THE HORROR!"
 
Invader said:
I think the term New Wave of American Heavy Metal is quite ridiculous because, 1. some people don't even consider all those bands proper metal, and 2. they've risen far more in America than Europe.  I think it's rather pointless to compare it to the NWOBHM because the effect of these new bands is far from the groundbreaking effect the NWOBHM had.  In Europe, I agree there is an expansion of metal again, but this new expansion is not spearheaded by those new American bands, but more by old European bands.  A lot of 80s and 90s bands have made it big, done reunions, etc, with the best example being Maiden (as Albie pointed out).  They are, however, mostly European.

I'd agree with naming it "the second golden age of heavy metal" rather than a new wave of American metal, though.  It's not a new wave, because there is very little innovation in the European metal scene of today.  It's more of old bands becoming popular again.  They haven't been away except in the eyes of the public.  It's also not so much of a wave as a gradual development, and I think only towards the later half of this decade has metal really resurfaced.

Looking back I guess we do agree on some things, though.  Maybe I misunderstood some of your points.  But bear in mind these are just my observations and speculations based on my own experience and the internet.
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We do in fact agree on some points, but let me clarify. I did not mean to imply that the American bands were having a major influence in Europe. The main point of my post was that we have two movements in our hands, the supposed NWOAHM and The Second Golden Age/Era of Metal; one a North American movement and the other a Nothern European movement. Both are comprised of bands from the late 90's early 2000's.

You are right that The European scene isn't exactly innovative, but I wouldn't say it is because it is of old bands being relevant again, but rather do to the new bands being cookie cutter molds of 80's tried and true formulas.

As for whether these American bands are "metal' or not to begin with I think it is a matter of taste and dare I say open-mindedness as to how the genre is expanding.
 
The European scene not innovative? How would you define that term? And what's the definition of the whole European scene? All the metal bands?

Of course not all metal bands are innovative. But I surely know new bands who bring a fresh, new and modern sound. Most of them are (again) Scandinavian.
 
For the record, I'm talking Scandinavian metal scene now.  I'm not sure what it's like down south, so I'm sticking with Scandinavia.

I don't think the Scandinavian heavy metal scene is very innovative anymore.  It was so in the 90's, but it has become stagnant nowadays, because new bands are bringing very little into the mix.  The leading bands of the Scandinavian metal scene are mostly melodeath bands, formed in the early 90s.  They're pretty old and well-established by now, and I don't consider them to be "new" bands anymore.  Compared to this "new wave of American heavy metal," where the bands are at least relatively new (began end of 90s to early 2000s, which makes them as new as Maiden was during The Number of the Beast-Powerslave era), the Scandinavian metal scene is led by older bands.

In addition, though I like melodeath very much, it seems like that's all that gets played in Scandinavia nowadays.  Most new "rising" Finnish bands are melodic death metal, and don't really bring anything new to the mix.  Of the small Finnish bands you see at festivals, there is way too many melodic death metal bands that are just copies of each other.  I think I saw five such bands that I had never seen or heard of before a few weeks ago at a festival.  And in addition, the "big" bands are playing pretty much the same music, but just doing it better.  In my opinion, the Scandinavian metal scene had its innovation in the 90s, not the 2000s.
 
Forostar said:
Of course not all metal bands are innovative. But I surely know new bands who bring a fresh, new and modern sound. Most of them are (again) Scandinavian.
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Names, please. I haven't heard a truly innovative piece of European metal in donkey's years.
 
@Invader:

I don't want to come across as being arrogant, but I find it amusing that I know the Scandinavian scene better than a Fin. At least I have more admiration for the scene than you. That might have to with your taste. Anyway, I find your conclusion a bit premature, since you're not so long into the metal scene.

Scar Symmetry (Sweden) and The Arcane Order (Denmark) are some examples of bands who really bring a new mix of varous elements in their modern sounding music. Perhaps they are not innovative (which is hard to define anyway) in your eyes, but again the new "touch" comes from the Scandinavians.
 
The thing is, I heard lots of really good recent metal bands, who all do add "something new" or "a different touch" to their music, which I greatly appreciate. But when all is said and done, with most bands, you could probably remove that "different touch" and have a normal, conventional metal band which doesn't sound different to hundreds of others. They may have great songwriting and talented musicians, but they just don't bend the borders. That's why, for though I loathe the music itself, I greatly appreciate the American Metalcore bands, because they're not stuck in the 80's or 90's, but add and remove complete elements to their music not caring what people say. That's the same attitude many bands had during the NWOBHM.

And to give you a thought for the road: It's true that Metalcore does not have very much to do with what we consider "metal" today, but back in 1980, Iron Maiden and Motörhead were considered punk by many. "Heavy metal" in those days, and the term was used, was the name given to bands like Deep Purple, Rainbow, Thin Lizzy, UFO, Blue Öyster Cult, Black Sabbath, Uriah Heep etc. When a band like Maiden came on, it sounded radically different, and I'm sure many people had a problem with calling that "heavy metal".
 
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