American and European Metal

[Albie]

I very much doubt that there were many metalheads who claimed that the NWOBHM genre was stagnant and unoriginal, when it first emerged.

I'm old enough to remember NWOBHM emerging in anger around 1980. There was a few people my age who were into the Sabbath/Zep/Purple type stuff who refused to acknowledge the existence of these bands. They could not see why I preferred Maiden to UFO or Diamond Head to Led Zep or even Venom to erm.. whoever (in fact nobody had even heard of Venom but me at the time). These NWOBHM "dislikers" where in the minority though, as you would expect, because had it not got any momentum, would we have bands like Metallica, Slayer, etc.

At that time America had Van Halen, Kiss and BOC. As well as Journey, REO Speedwagon, Boston.... and when you look at it like that, I think we can be thankful for the likes of Maiden et al.

 

[Anonymous]

Well said Albie.  Of course there were people criticising NWOBHM when it came out... just like people are criticising metalcore now.  In thirty years time, when we look back at the metal scene now, the history books will make it seem as though metalcore was very popular.

EDIT:
"Maiden's naysayers said 'You should do some more commercial material'"

 

[Albie]

In thirty years time, when we look back at the metal scene now, the history books will make it seem as though metalcore was very popular.

Popular, yes. But it won't be remembered for its originality or freshness on the whole. Laugh all you want at the Trivium mock-ups on YouTube, but what is said is valid - "it's been done before" (right down to the usage of KK's patented solos).

A lot of NWOBHM bands did have this freshness and that is why it will always be revered as a bit of a turning point in metal (the whole thing has been documented elsewhere, so I need not go into details here). The world had not before seen the likes of Venom, Maiden (no metal band had before used a punky short haired vocalist to give them this type of edge musically as well as image-wise), Diamond Head, etc.

And to those who dismissed it at the time - well, that would be their problem.

 

[Anonymous]

I read Albie's post and just realised somethig... mankind can never learn from its past   Nothing against you Albie, it's just that everybody is dismissing metalcore as "unfresh" when actually it is pushing in youth and enthusiasm.  It may not be everybody's cup of tea (especially not mine) but there is no denying the influence that metalcore is having on the next generation of metal artists.

 

[Raven]

I read Albie's post and just realised somethig... mankind can never learn from its past   Nothing against you Albie, it's just that everybody is dismissing metalcore as "unfresh" when actually it is pushing in youth and enthusiasm.  It may not be everybody's cup of tea (especially not mine) but there is no denying the influence that metalcore is having on the next generation of metal artists.

Oh great, so it's the blind leading the blind, is it?

 

[Albie]

everybody is dismissing metalcore as "unfresh" when actually it is pushing in youth and enthusiasm.  It may not be everybody's cup of tea (especially not mine) but there is no denying the influence that metalcore is having on the next generation of metal artists.

I doubt if anyone is dismissing its popularity, certainly not me. I also don't really have a problem with some bands rehashing old ideas (this may sound like I'm contradicting my earlier post, but even if it has been done before, if I like - I like it and I'll buy it after all I have some stuff by Trouble). I guess I may be thinking along the lines of "nothing can compare to NWOBHM's influence" and maybe I am being a bit snobby about it.

But there was detractors then as there is now. Time will tell how this Metalcore scene will be remembered.

 

[Raven]

I don't mind rehahsed material either, if it's good.  After all, I'm a great fan of Hans Zimmer, but most of his material is taken straight out of Holst's 'The Planets' suite.  I still listen to him because I like his work and I like hearing the same ideas executed in slightly different ways.  What I hate, though, is the metal media acting as if these bands were somehow original or fresh.  After all, 90% of Trivium's riffs are taken from either;
At the Gates' Slaughter of the Soul (Itself a very commercial and 'rehashing of old ideas' album)
Metallica's 'Master of Puppets'
In Flames' Clayman (similar to AtG)

Most of their solos are simply Kerry King's shreds played note-for-note.  Now, this unoriginality is not what pisses me off.  The fact that the metal media embraces this blatant plagirism with open arms irritates me-they should be informed, and instead of saying Trivium are 'the next Metallica', they could at the very least be a little more critical and knowledgeable.  But maybe I'm expecting too much of them...

Oh, and one final parting blow at metalcore-as long as they insist on alternating between whiny American accented vocals and tuneless screams, I will never listen to them.  I have enough trouble with shitty death growlers like Anders Friden ^_^

 

[Onhell]

I've noticed this happens everywhere, not just in Metal or even music. People are always looking for the next... whatever and most of the time the dubbed one doesn't live up to the hype, or even if they are good, they are nowhere near as good as the next. Now, while people are too busy looking for "The Next" they fail to see there are plenty of "nexts" For example. People look for and dub many bands "the next maiden." If you want "the next maiden" there are already plenty of them, Tierra Santa is Iron Maiden in Spanish, for example. The Next Maiden already exist. If by Next Maiden they mean a new, innovative, original, intelligent band, it most likely will not be the next maiden, it will be itself and soon people will copy and emmulate them and before you know it they'll look for the next version of that band.


I'm not so well versed in music as I liked to but I know my Hockey. Ever Since Wayne Gretzkey played people have been looking for "the next one" Many have been dubbed as such (Dale Howerchuck, Eric Lindros, Alexandre Daigle and the latests being Sydney Crosby... Just to name a few). I forget if Lemieux was ever dubbed as such but I don't doubt he was and in fact he was the only one that came close (while healthy that is), but what happened? He wasn't the Next Gretzkey, He was Mario Lemieux, he was different enough and good enough to carve his own little niche in Hockey history. out of the ones I mentioned two were talented, but nowhere close to either Lemieux or Gretzkey, one was a flat out bust and Crosby... well, he's only played a season, but if he keeps it up he just might become a superstar worthy of people looking for the next Crosby.

 

[Kynisk Sokol]

It is very easy to hate metalcore.  It is difficult to like it despite the preconceptions.  open your mind.

People claim to have an open mind towards music as an excuse to listen to rubbish. Being "closed minded" is preferable.

 

[Shadow]

Everyone is close-minded. Everyone has prejudices, everyone stereotypes. Nobody is open-minded in the broad sense of the word.

Having said that, I try to keep an open mind towards other styles of music. Being a bit of an electronica fan, it always annoys me to see people slag it off all of it as lazy and untalented music (while all the same complaing about metal being stereotyped). I don't really care, it doesn't take away the greatness from me, but I don't like the way people often have very outspoken opinions in matters they know nothing about. I'm not saying you should refrain from building an opinion, I'm just personally reluctant to take too stubborn a viewpoint when I'm unfamiliar with what's being discussed.

What I'm trying to say is that I think lots of people dislike the new styles more because they've always heard they're bad than because they've heard much of the music itself.

 

[Raven]

Everyone is close-minded. Everyone has prejudices, everyone stereotypes. Nobody is open-minded in the broad sense of the word.

Having said that, I try to keep an open mind towards other styles of music. Being a bit of an electronica fan, it always annoys me to see people slag it off all of it as lazy and untalented music (while all the same complaing about metal being stereotyped). I don't really care, it doesn't take away the greatness from me, but I don't like the way people often have very outspoken opinions in matters they know nothing about. I'm not saying you should refrain from building an opinion, I'm just personally reluctant to take too stubborn a viewpoint when I'm unfamiliar with what's being discussed.

What I'm trying to say is that I think lots of people dislike the new styles more because they've always heard they're bad than because they've heard much of the music itself.

The trouble with metalcore is that if you hear and hate bands like Trivium and Avenged Sevenfold, you're not going to go looking for decent metalcore bands, because if those bands are praised as the 'best of the genre', you will automatically stereotype all metalcore as being worse.  Undoubtedly, there is at least one metalcore band that I might be inclined to like, but I'm not going to go sifting through the sewage to find the proverbial diamond, especially when it's more than likely that this diamond is so different from the usual metalcore sound that they will be completely ignore by the media.

 

[Anonymous]

Think about it this way... when the NWOBHM first came out, there was a great multitude of bands on the scene...

Iron Maiden
Venom
Def Leppard
Saxon
Angel Witch
Samson
Diamond Head
Girlschool
(just to mention a few)

After thirty years of musical progression, how many of those bands are still on the scene, playing thier traditional style of music?  Arguably only two or three have stayed ture throughout this time period.

If, in thirty years time, two or three metalcore bands are still popular and have released upwards of ten albums, I think it can be said that it was popular.  As Albie says however, only time will tell.  I think a couple of bands will make their name for a substantial period of time.

 

[Raven]

Think about it this way... when the NWOBHM first came out, there was a great multitude of bands on the scene...

Iron Maiden
Venom
Def Leppard
Saxon
Angel Witch
Samson
Diamond Head
Girlschool
(just to mention a few)

After thirty years of musical progression, how many of those bands are still on the scene, playing thier traditional style of music?  Arguably only two or three have stayed ture throughout this time period.

If, in thirty years time, two or three metalcore bands are still popular and have released upwards of ten albums, I think it can be said that it was popular.  As Albie says however, only time will tell.  I think a couple of bands will make their name for a substantial period of time.

You're not getting the point.  We're not saying Metalcore's not popular.  We're saying it's too popular and too media-driven.  If, on the other hand, you mean to say that if the above happens, metalcore can be seen as outliving it's criticisms, then, yes, I think metalcore will have been successfull.  It won't endear me to it to any degree, though, so it's all moot.

 

[Anonymous]

Metalcore is media driven?

I haven't heard one metalcore song on the radio and yet today I heard TROBB on BBC Radio One.

 

[Albie]

Metalcore is media driven?

I haven't heard one metalcore song on the radio and yet today I heard TROBB on BBC Radio One.

I think Silky is talking the written word as media (i.e. Kerrang, et al).

A lot of these Metalcore acts to still be around in 30 years time is really dependant on how they can mature as an act. If they still try to re-enact what they do now when they reach their 40's, I think they may look a little silly. They will need to grow as an artist. A good example is how acts like Kreator and Amorphis have matured, if acts like Trivium can do likewise, they will still be here when I'll be in my 60's or 70's *shudders*.

I'll state now though, from what I have heard of Trivium has not overly impressed me, but it has not repulsed me either. I really would rather listen to acts like this than a lot of others - believe me. And, as Conor has stated, if the kids are into these type of acts then I'm all for it. I'd rather a 14/15 year old say they like Trivium than - well, you get the idea. An example is when I was that age - I would rather listen to rock acts than pop acts (even if the rock act was a little cheesy).

 

[Raven]

Metalcore is media driven?

I haven't heard one metalcore song on the radio and yet today I heard TROBB on BBC Radio One.

Radio One does play Maiden, from time to time.  And for my riposte...

And I'm also talking about the crap being played on MTV and VH1 a lot.  Well, that's shit, commercialised, braindead metal in general, and not just metalcore, so...

 

[Onhell]

When I happen to watch T.V (not often since I don't own one) I see a lot of metalcore videos on the channels that still play music videos and not crappy reality shows, when I listen to the radio (not often since I don't own one and I play my iPod or MP3 cds in my car) on the so-called "rock stations" they do play them.

As a side note not all music played on mtv sucks, MTV2 plays headbanger's ball and they do have quality acts on their from time to time.

 

[Raven]

When I happen to watch T.V (not often since I don't own one) I see a lot of metalcore videos on the channels that still play music videos and not crappy reality shows, when I listen to the radio (not often since I don't own one and I play my iPod or MP3 cds in my car) on the so-called "rock stations" they do play them.

As a side note not all music played on mtv sucks, MTV2 plays headbanger's ball and they do have quality acts on their from time to time.

I was referring to MTV2, although I will give you that they do play some good commercial material from metal bands, like Epica or Nightwish.  Still, most of it is metalcore, or similar rubbish (c.f. Six Feet Under, new Sepultura)

 

[Shadow]

The trouble with metalcore is that if you hear and hate bands like Trivium and Avenged Sevenfold, you're not going to go looking for decent metalcore bands, because if those bands are praised as the 'best of the genre', you will automatically stereotype all metalcore as being worse.  Undoubtedly, there is at least one metalcore band that I might be inclined to like, but I'm not going to go sifting through the sewage to find the proverbial diamond, especially when it's more than likely that this diamond is so different from the usual metalcore sound that they will be completely ignore by the media.

True, but that's not what I'm saying. You don't have to thoroughly explore or find something you like in every genre to be open-minded. If you've heard and disliked a number of prominent bands I think you're perfectly entitled to saying you don't like the stuff. What I was talking about are those people who have never really heard any of it but slag it off anyway because they've been told it's crap.

 

[Raven]

True, but that's not what I'm saying. You don't have to thoroughly explore or find something you like in every genre to be open-minded. If you've heard and disliked a number of prominent bands I think you're perfectly entitled to saying you don't like the stuff. What I was talking about are those people who have never really heard any of it but slag it off anyway because they've been told it's crap.

I've been told it's crap, but I try to listen to the genre (i.e. one metalcore band) at least before slagging it.  I may not be especially open-minded, but then I don't want to spend my time proving to myself what I already suspect.  If my friends say it's crap, I'll trust them.  And here I'm talking the vast majority of my metal friends, who have tastes very similar to my own.