American and European Metal

Onhell

Onhell

Infinite Dreamer
Hello all. Looking through my cd collection and paying attention at their content I made what I think is a very obvious observation. The majority of the American Metal bands focus on political, social, emotional topics. And most European bands focus on fantasy themes. As an example I'll begin with Metallica. In their early days they wrote about post-apocalyptic scenarios (fight fire with fire), Soldiers as puppets (disposible heroes) as well as suicide and family disfunction. Megadeth also critics the government frequently and write pain-riden love songs like Trust and Almost Honest. Always painful and angry. That is American Metal, critical, sorrowful and angry.
European metal on the other hand delves in fantasy for the most part. Rhapsody entered the scence with their "Enchanted lands" and Lord of the Rings-type world. Haggard delves in medieval themes and romantazising Nostradamus. In recent years Therion writes about nordic mythology and two of their cd's were titled "dragon" (Theli and Vovin). So why do American bands focus on realism and European bands on Fantasy?
I think it has to do with their history and social enviornments. Europe has been torn with wars from day one, suffering and pain. The terrorist attack in Spain just a couple of weeks ago is the last in a LONG string of such incidents. So I believe it is natural for their music, their ESCAPE is a fairy tale land, a magical world where good eventually triumphs over evil (like in the last minute of Helloweens Keeper of the seven keys) and everything has a positive attitude. Their lives are not so wonderful so, like hammerfall, they pretend to be a character greater than life that will fight with honor to overcome theri suffering.
In America, a country that has rarely been invaded (the war of 1812, Pearl Harbor and 9/11 are the only ones that come to mind) and that have surrounded themselves in this dreamland of perfection and comfort get the opposite from these musicians. When they are surrounded by a society which pretends to be happy, loves amusement parks and feeds their citizens that they can do anything and be the greatest, when that is bogus or unrealistic someone is bound to point it out. Even today's hard rock acts in america compensate for their lack of talent with emotion and anger and how their parents and lives suck. On The other hand, European Metal acts are more than likely to be classically trained.
This makes Iron Maiden even more unique. They are neither a realist nor a fantasy band. Their expertise is historical events and delving into the human psyche. Now there are exceptions. Black Sabbath was a very political band and very dark. But again they were merely a response to the hippie counter-culture. Dream Theater is an American Band that is very romantic and their keyboardist (Jordan Rudess) was in Julliard at age nine, their Bassit (John Myung) actually played the violin before giving the bass a chance.
The point of this thread, for those who are wondering, is to show Maidens uniqueness AND to try to understand the deeper roots of where does the music we listen to comes from and why you might like a certain subgenre of metal. UP THE IRONS [!--emo&:rock:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/headbang.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'headbang.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
Very good observation.

However, I find the majority of the UK metal to be not really about either. Our ones seem to be more about killing people and stuff or they're about love! Probably that British black humour coming though.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Onhell+Mar 23 2004, 04:44 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Onhell @ Mar 23 2004, 04:44 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--] European metal on the other hand delves in fantasy for the most part. Rhapsody entered the scence with their "Enchanted lands" and Lord of the Rings-type world. Haggard delves in medieval themes and romantazising Nostradamus. In recent years Therion writes about nordic mythology and two of their cd's were titled "dragon" (Theli and Vovin).  So why do American bands focus on realism and European bands on Fantasy?
[/quote]
The american bands proberly dont do fantasy type songs, medieval themes because they don't have that type of history.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Atvarussmak+Mar 25 2004, 08:49 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Atvarussmak @ Mar 25 2004, 08:49 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--] The american bands proberly dont do fantasy type songs, medieval themes because they don't have that type of history. [/quote]
True, but so far, only Iced Earth has tried to tackle U.S history (and only in their latest album) in any way. Symphony X ( i think they're from the U.S) does delve deeply into fantasy. Hell, their album "V" was about atlantis! And you are right AM, U.K bands are simply....dark. Paradise Lost anyone? Would it have anything to do with the U.K being an island and not immidiately affected by what happens in the European "mainland"? That or the weather! [!--emo&:D--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
It could be English "food", and I use that word very loosely.

American metal bands are apt to create violence-themed metal (probably partly due to some British influence) with political overtones. Slayer and Megadeth are two good examples of this trend.

But I will confess that I don't really pay attention to a lot of new hardcore metal bands. I'm one of the older fans on this forum, so I tend to listen to older music. Some young whippersnapper who is better versed in younger bands may have a more accurate opinion.

P.S.: American food is nothing to write home about, either; after all, we're the Home of the Whopper. [!--emo&:puke:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/pukeface.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'pukeface.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
North American history is every bit as detailed and indepth as European history. Especially 20th Century History.
 
SMX, i don't know what you consider "old" or "young" fan. I'm 20 years old and listen to "old" metallica and maiden, MY friends say i'm outdated! the "new" bands I listen to formed in the mid 90's and MOST are European bands. The reason is because in the U.S the only "classic" metal band and classical meaning thrash, melodic and intrincic metal, is Iced Earth (DT and SX are more Prog Rock). European bands have remained true to a more...orthodox sounds. There are plenty of "new" bands (the newest could be sonata artica comming out in 1999 and already has 3 albums). I love 80's american metal and European metal has been consistant through the years in having a pure "clean" sound. EVEN death metal acts (Opeth specially).
 
You're right Onhell, I wasn't very clear. I stopped paying close attention to new bands around 1998, when nu-metal started becoming popular. So if a decent metal band has come around in the last 5 years, there's a good chance I haven't heard them. I do pay attention to what people say on this site, and I somtimes check out bands who get high marks from other Maiden fans, but if there's a good band that has somehow never been mentioned here then I'd be ignorant about them.
 
I don't know why, but I'm getting a strong urge to promote [a href=\'http://www.dreamevil.se/\' target=\'_blank\']Dream Evil[/a] [!--emo&:D--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
[!--QuoteBegin-Onhell+Mar 23 2004, 04:44 AM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(Onhell @ Mar 23 2004, 04:44 AM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--]Hello all. Looking through my cd collection and paying attention at their content I made what I think is a very obvious observation. The majority of the American Metal bands focus on political, social, emotional topics. And most European bands focus on fantasy themes. As an example I'll begin with Metallica. In their early days they wrote about post-apocalyptic scenarios (fight fire with fire), Soldiers as puppets (disposible heroes) as well as suicide and family disfunction. Megadeth also critics the government frequently and write pain-riden love songs like Trust and Almost Honest. Always painful and angry. That is American Metal, critical, sorrowful and angry.
European metal on the other hand delves in fantasy for the most part. Rhapsody entered the scence with their "Enchanted lands" and Lord of the Rings-type world. Haggard delves in medieval themes and romantazising Nostradamus. In recent years Therion writes about nordic mythology and two of their cd's were titled "dragon" (Theli and Vovin).  So why do American bands focus on realism and European bands on Fantasy?
I think it has to do with their history and social enviornments. Europe has been torn with wars from day one, suffering and pain. The terrorist attack in Spain just a couple of weeks ago is the last in a LONG string of such incidents. So I believe it is natural for their music, their ESCAPE is a fairy tale land, a magical world where good eventually triumphs over evil (like in the last minute of Helloweens Keeper of the seven keys) and everything has a positive attitude. Their lives are not so wonderful so, like hammerfall, they pretend to be a character greater than life that will fight with honor to overcome theri suffering.
In America, a country that has rarely been invaded (the war of 1812, Pearl Harbor and 9/11 are the only ones that come to mind) and that have surrounded themselves in this dreamland of perfection and comfort get the opposite from these musicians. When they are surrounded by a society which pretends to be happy, loves amusement parks and feeds their citizens that they can do anything and be the greatest, when that is bogus or unrealistic someone is bound to point it out. Even today's hard rock acts in america compensate for their lack of talent with emotion and anger and how their parents and lives suck. On The other hand, European Metal acts are more than likely to be classically trained.
This makes Iron Maiden even more unique. They are neither a realist nor a fantasy band. Their expertise is historical events and delving into the human psyche. Now there are exceptions. Black Sabbath was a very political band and very dark. But again they were merely a response to the hippie counter-culture. Dream Theater is an American Band that is very romantic and their keyboardist (Jordan Rudess) was in Julliard at age nine, their Bassit (John Myung) actually played the violin before giving the bass a chance.
The point of this thread, for those who are wondering, is to show Maidens uniqueness AND to try to understand the deeper roots of where does the music we listen to comes from and why you might like a certain subgenre of metal.  UP THE IRONS  [!--emo&:rock:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/headbang.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'headbang.gif\' /][!--endemo--][/quote]
Onhell-

It seems to me, intentional or not, that you are making a mockery of American history and culture. You imply that Europeans are in some way more advanced.
American history is just the next chapter. America contains all cultures and histories because we hail from all parts of the globe. America was founded by people who left the land of their birth to escape the incidents you are referring to as "European history", such as wars, religous oppression, etc. We lived that history, too.

You also imply that europeans are tougher for what they have been through, and Americans seem to whine about minor problems. By the way, when was the last time you took up arms and killed a man for your country, or watched your friend die in your arms. Europe would be speaking German if it wasn't for us whining babies.

I do agree that alot of new american music my tend to be "whiney". But that is the fault of the industry, and doesn't reflect all "american musicians" or the general population for that matter. There are hundreds. if not thousands of great american bands that you will probably never hear. I'm sure it is the same in Europe. At twenty years old, there are are probably many ACCOMPLISHED bands you haven't heard. You seem to be making some hefty remarks based on your personal CD collection.

My last thought is about your dissection of music. Why do people such as yourself feel the need to break everything down in neat little stacks. European, American, Death, Black, Speed, Thrash, Old, New(Nu?), Heavy, Hair, etc. It's all "Metal", it's all "ROCK -N- FUCKIN - ROLL!!!! If it wasn't for rock-n-roll, you would have nothing to talk about on this site, and it started here in the U.S. Don't take this the wrong way. Most of my favorite bands are from the UK. But when people ask me what kind of music I listen to, or what kind of music I play, my answer is always the same no matter who specifically I'm listening to...


[span style=\'color:red\'][span style=\'font-size:21pt;line-height:100%\']Rock-N-Fuckin-Roll!!![/span][/span]



By the way, if a song is about politics or war, it's about history.
 
Great post maiden detroit! Though somewhat aggressive ( I don't blame you) it's something I can really work with. I'll take your points one by one.
1. I am not making a mockery of American history and culture in any way. Can one compare and contrast the salem witch trials to the Spanish Inquisition? I think yes. And Salem pales in comparison. So yes Europeans ARE tougher than americans. because all the wars fought in america only the Independance, Revolution and the war of 1812 were on american soil. The two WWs, the crusades, roman expansion etc. etc. happened on European soil and because of the size of the continent naturally affects not only the soldiers but innocent civilians.
2. Don't even think of giving me that "we saved Europe" Bullshit. Canada New Zealand, and Australia (sure it was because of ties to the U.K) were in BOTH WWs WAY before the U.S and suffered more losses. In both cases the U.S came in at the last minute only when THEIR interest were at stake NOT to help France or England out of the kindness of their hearts. MONEY makes the world go round and it definately is the prime motive for U.S foreign policy.
3. I did talk about 80's american METAL not ROCK and ROLL. in the 80's the U.S had TONS of quality metal acts at par and superior to European acts. I was focusing on their sound as well as lyrical content. As far as sound goes U.S bands have dengenerated from that "classical" sound (see my other post for a definition on that) to Korn's, Limp Bizkit and Slip Knot's "nu metal" sound. I didn't mean american lyrics were "whiney" I called them critical. they Critices their society, call their government corrupt, their parents pieces of shit etc. They bring issues to the surface that society ignores because they are "ugly" things, unpleasant. Because you cannot deny that American society has surrounded itself in this bubble of big screen tv's 300 channel satelite's high speed internet connection and actually tell people (just watch tv if you don't believe me) that this is what they want, this is what will make them happy. instead of dealing with their problems. "You're sad? go shopping". Metal has said, no, shopping will not make me happy, you guys are *cked.
In other words. The point of the post was NOT about America VS. Europe. It was to show how Each society's Music functions. In america it is a "HEY DON'T IGNORE THESE IMPORTANT ISSUES" and in Europe its "HEY FORGET ABOUT YOUR LIFE FOR A WHILE".
4. Categorizing is a must. In ANY field ANY subject you study or come across there are genres/categories and subgenres/subcategories. Let me emphesis this. GENERALIZING IS NEVER A GOOD THING. This first example will make it very clear. "All americans are stupid" or the one you alluded to that "americans are tough because they fought in world war II". All americans ARE NOT stupid ( i think) and the only amricans that fought and saw the horrors of war first hand were the soldiers while everyone else see it on their tv screens comfortably at home. Just as lumping Lutherans, Anglicans, Catholics etc. as Christians. Yes they are all Christians HOWEVER it is their minor (and mostly major) differences that specify them as a denomination. THEREFORE in Metal you get the same thing: Melodic, Symphonic, Epic, Death/black, Hair, Pop, Thrash etc. It's all metal but it is their differences that makes them unique.
Since this is a long post let's recap. I did not call American Metal whiny nor infirior to european metal. I attempted to show the social phenomena from where the metal bands of the respective countries get most of their material. And Generalizing is not the best thing to do. Now, before someone says "but that's what you did by saying "European Metal". Well... if you pay attention you'll notice the thread did move on to start talking about U.K metal. The reason behind that was to start a dialogue and it worked. Also, I arrived at that generalization through A SAMPLE. This is done because interviewing the entire world, country, etc is impossible. So you get a great sample which represents most if not all parts of the society you are studying. So my European Collection comprises bands from: Spain, Italy, France, England, Sweden, Finland and Germany. The prime producers of metal. My american Bands are from the 80's 90's and 2000's. (Yes i do own papa roach). So your believes that my collection is depleated of a reliable source for such claims is incorrect. I am familiar and have heard MANY accomplished bands but I in recent years (do to moving) I only purchase metal albums, though one day hope to have an extensive metal/rock collection. I don't see the need for a full biography and i hope this is enough to clarify your doubts. (Iron Duke, Loose Cannon feel free to jump in on any history disputes, in fact i'll appreciated if you do.) I've heard from an American about the "mistakes" of my post, i'd like to hear from some angry European as well! Is this LooseCannon long? [!--emo&:rock:--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/headbang.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'headbang.gif\' /][!--endemo--]
 
I would like to make a few points on the comparison of North American and European History. I have made the point earlier that both have very indepth and complex histories. However, Onhell was correct to point out that compared to Europe, North America has seen very little bloodshed. Wars on North American territory have been limited to, in the past 200 years, the War of 1812, the US Civil War, the Spanish-American War, the Mexican-American War, and World War 2. I'm not including WW1 because at no point did Central Power forces shell North America. In contrast, the same 200 year period has seen: All 5 Napoleonic Wars. The German Wars of Unification. The Crimean War. The Austro-Prussian War. The Franco-Prussian War. Two Wars in the Baltics. World War 1. World War 2. The Greek Civil War. The Yugoslav Civil War. As well, North Americans barely saw the devastation of the two World Wars. American soldiers in particular missed out on most of the trench experience of WW1, the most futile war in history.

Maiden Detroit has made the point that America contains the history of Europe as well. This is a valid point! Unfortunately, the United States abides by the melting pot theory of creating a nation. The history and sociey of AMERICA is imposed upon immigrants. A first generation immigrant from, say, England, leans not of the War of the Roses, Gallipoli, and Winston Churchill, but instead of the American Civil War, Belleau Woods, and FDR. In short, US immigrants are expected to forgo their former culture in order to obtain American ideals. Some sense of identity is retained, but the American culture does supplant it.

Finally, the United States did NOT win World War 2 in Europe. The contribution of the Western Allies is tiny compared to the contribution of the major allied power: Soviet Russia. From 1941-1943 the Soviets had no major aid in defeating the Axis. By the time the US and Brits gained their first toehold in Europe (Sicily), the Soviets had already won the last major battle on their front: Kursk. The Russians lost 24 million of their countrymen. The two major North American combatants lost less than half a million. (America lost, I believe, 280,000. Canada lost another 40,000.)


On a personal note, I've noticed Onhell has a very diverse selection of metal, but based on my smaller selection which includes mostly more metal-mainstream bands, I tend to agree with him. I am no expert, however, I will let it stand at that...
 
Onhell, you win a gold star for making it to LooseCannon long. And as you can see, we posted at the same time, so I already made my history points.
 
First of all, I resent anyone who has the audacity to claim that North America is somehow less advanced socially, culturally, or otherwise. Really. Blow it out your arse.

Anyone who thinks Europe is somehow less civillized or less advanced because of the way inwhich it has developed, again, blow it out your arse.


Yes, there are slightly different genres of music on either side of the pond, but remember that they evolved from each other!

the Blue from the US South evolved into Jazz, which heavily influenced a certain group of 4 young men in Liverpool. Those, with a hoarde of other Brits, revolutionized American music in the 1960s. In the aftermath, in the mid 1970s, the first real 'metal' was born in the US, which quietly made its way to Britain to produce Maiden et al.
Without one, the other would not exist as we know it!

In short,everyone should blow it out your arse.

Cheers,
Iron Duke
 
Iron Duke, you are better and more artuculate than that. I suggest you let your initial anger pass and try again.
 
[!--QuoteBegin-IronDuke+Mar 26 2004, 04:07 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(IronDuke @ Mar 26 2004, 04:07 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--] ...in the mid 1970s, the first real 'metal' was born in the US... [/quote]
Nope. The first real metal was created in Birmingham, England in the late 60's by four guys named Ozzy, Tony, Geezer and Bill. Ever since, the majority of the world's greatest metal bands has come from the Old World. I'm not saying American metal isn't great. Create your own list of the greatest metal bands ever - I bet there will be more Europeans on that list than Americans. Perhaps not an overwhelming majority, but a majority nonetheless.

America is more dominant in the area of hard rock. For me, Aerosmith, Kiss and Van Halen are the definitive hard rock bands, and they're as American as baseball and apple pie.
 
Even Maiden sings about American History.

"Run To The Hills"...?

I realize that I'm only a ''Wrathchild,'' but I think I have a point to prove. This is not against anyone, mind you. We all have the same histories. The Americans migrated here from Europe. We've faught wars too, and they weren't any more or less brutal than yours. I see talk about ''European History'' from well before the time ''White Man came across the sea." Where did White man come from? Europe. I just think we've all got the same history.

How can one say that we don't have the same Midievil histories when we came to America from Europe after the Midievil times?
 
[!--QuoteBegin-GodBeWithYou+Mar 27 2004, 02:41 PM--][div class=\'quotetop\']QUOTE(GodBeWithYou @ Mar 27 2004, 02:41 PM)[/div][div class=\'quotemain\'][!--QuoteEBegin--] Even Maiden sings about American History.

"Run To The Hills"...?

I realize that I'm only a ''Wrathchild,'' but I think I have a point to prove. This is not against anyone, mind you. We all have the same histories. The Americans migrated here from Europe. We've faught wars too, and they weren't any more or less brutal than yours. I see talk about ''European History'' from well before the time ''White Man came across the sea." Where did White man come from? Europe. I just think we've all got the same history.

How can one say that we don't have the same Midievil histories when we came to America from Europe after the Midievil times? [/quote]
Fair enough. The thing is, the U.S rarely includes Native American history as part of their history, they usually begin with the arrival of the pilgrims on plymouth rock (which incidently happened because they ran out of beer). I also did not include the systematic irradication of the indians. When I thought of "American" history i considered from 1776 on. And when I spoke of "European" History I was thinking of the Unification of Western Europe under Christendom on. With that clarrified now we can argue further [!--emo&:D--][img src=\'style_emoticons/[#EMO_DIR#]/biggrin.gif\' border=\'0\' style=\'vertical-align:middle\' alt=\'biggrin.gif\' /][!--endemo--].
As for Iron duke, "Blow it up your arse" is needed once in a while but in that case Maiden Detroit expressed it much better. lol
 
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