World War II: The European Theatre as told by heavy metal songs
- Thread starter Perun
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harrisdevot
Priest of the Holy Wristband
I'm sorry too, but with this I firmly disagree : it has been proved many times that crimes were commited by members of the German armed forces, regardless of their belonging to the party. Wehrmacht as a whole (not only Waffen-SS units or Einsatzgruppen) did inforce the 'Kommissarbefehl", urging to kill on the spot all the political officers of the Red Army ; Wehrmacht as an institution "mistreated" the Russians POWs. And Wehrmacht units perpetrated massacres on a large scale. And on the other side, some Waffen-SS units were never involved in war crimes or crimes against humanity, some members of the Nazy party saved lives. The line drawned beetween nazies and not is too simplistic, and it served certain objectives in post-war Germany. About this, there has been this exibition in München a few years back, which I reckon was rather traumatic.
A link : http://www.verbrechen-der-wehrmacht.de/pdf/vdw_en.pdf
And Christopher Browning's Ordinary Men gives many clues : those guys from a Police reserve battalion were NOT, for most of them, members of the party, but they were quickly brought to kill men, and then women and children.
This said, (1) I was just saying how unconfortable I am with those matters being used in songs (2) I don't intend to have rants with anyone ; (3) I've got NOTHING against German people and is not meant to offend anyone.
But, as this thread has turned into an historical discussion, I wanted to express my opinion (and today is a good day to talk about these matters).
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Black Wizard
Pleb Hunter
At the end of the day I think that harrisdevot can hear fascism in Sabaton, but, well, you all know the rest.
harrisdevot
Priest of the Holy Wristband
Please !!! Where did I write this. I don't see facism and racism everywhere. Several of you guys told me they are not facists, and I believe you. Period. And I perfectly realize that a band praising Israel for its victory over the arab nations cannot be nazi, come on. Plus, I've never heard a single song by them, I've only read a few lyrics, and I'm not discussing Sabaton anymore in my preceeding posts.
harrisdevot, you are still making the mistake of not distinguishing between those giving the Wehrmacht orders and those executing them. You're not the only one making this mistake. I am sometimes baffled by how people today expect the simple soldiers of an entire army to collectively deny ordets and risk being shot on the spot.
Some did it, it's true. And these are the people Sabaton dedicated songs like No Bullets Fly and Hearts of Iron to. But most people in the Wehrmacht were soldiers who obeyed their orders, did not question them and tried to survive the next day. I'm not saying they were all innocence, but I'm saying the guilt lies mainly on those who gave the orders when they could have chosen not to, instead of those who executed them when they had no other choice.
I agree that it is not as simple to draw the line between those who were Nazis and those who weren't. But that is an argument that requires too many disclaimers for me to make, too many conditional clauses and too many subjunctive constructions for it to be understood properly, and quite frankly, I'm not in the mood for that.
Some did it, it's true. And these are the people Sabaton dedicated songs like No Bullets Fly and Hearts of Iron to. But most people in the Wehrmacht were soldiers who obeyed their orders, did not question them and tried to survive the next day. I'm not saying they were all innocence, but I'm saying the guilt lies mainly on those who gave the orders when they could have chosen not to, instead of those who executed them when they had no other choice.
I agree that it is not as simple to draw the line between those who were Nazis and those who weren't. But that is an argument that requires too many disclaimers for me to make, too many conditional clauses and too many subjunctive constructions for it to be understood properly, and quite frankly, I'm not in the mood for that.
Ariana
Black-and-white leopard
Your claims may be true but they are also incredibly elementary and one-sided. Nazis were evil, fine, nobody is going to deny this. But what about the Russians, you're not going to claim they were all well-behaved gentlemen who opened doors for the women and children in the cities they took over, I hope?
harrisdevot
Priest of the Holy Wristband
"Elementary and one-sided". I must recognize you've got a gift to pick up the most effective words. Did you bother to read me ? I've never tried to justify by any mean the crimes committed on behalf of communism. So I meet your "hope" I don't praise the Red Army. But just because the NKVD was a criminal organization, the German army should have be allowed to kill all members of the communist party ? This is the theory of some German historians, who consider that Germany took preventive action with Barbarossa. Most of the russian soldiers had to fight for a regime they did not approve, but, even if they were all communists, their death by starving, shooting, gas and so on would still be a terrible crime. And when talking about WWII and the Nazis, one must not take into account Russia only : Wehrmacht committed crimes on even larger scale in Greece (a greater percentage of the population was killed their, above all in Crete), Yugoslavia, while its behaviour in France was fierce in 1944 (Oradour is not the only village to have been slayed). Those people did not committed any major crime, and your relativist theories can't apply there.
Uh, nowhere in Ariana's post or in this entire thread has this statement been made.
harrisdevot
Priest of the Holy Wristband
I know that. I just said a crime is a crime, and that I've never said Russians were angels.
harrisdevot
Priest of the Holy Wristband
I didn't put any word in her mouth, I just tried to illustrate the reasoning and show that the criminal nature of some of the victim didn't alter the criminal nature of the act.
Ariana
Black-and-white leopard
It's what I get paid for.
You may not be trying to justify the crimes of communism, but you insist on bringing back the topic of Nazis and what they did across Europe. We all know this, I believe. There is no need to put that much emphasis on their deeds, because your opinion comes across as stating that Russians were bad, but the Nazis were worse. And that's not a game I'm willing to play.
Also, please notice the way you acknowledge that the average Russian soldier fought for a regime he did not approve, while in your view, the average German soldier helped the Nazis to carry out their sick plans.
harrisdevot, what country are you from again? Shall I list that country's extensive record of war crimes? Would you like a list of war crimes perpetrated by Canadians, or Americans, or the French? We're all stained with the same blood as the average Wehrmacht soldier. Just as a minor example, go see how many prisoners the Cdn 3rd Division took from 12th SS (Hitler Jugend). Not too many. Most of the kids who tried to surrender were shot in the back of the head as they thought they were going to captivity. We weren't as bad as the Waffen-SS, but we sure as hell aren't clean-handed.
Yes, SOME people were committed Nazis. Some followed orders in the Wehrmacht, some Nazis disobeyed orders, saved lives, or tried just to get by. But when we look at this in a historical standpoint, there's two thoughts I have to share. The first is innocent until proven guilty. History allows us to make judgement about the members of the Waffen-SS very easily because of the rigorous pro-Nazi testing that you had to undergo even to join the unit. You've said there's some units of the Waffen-SS that didn't partake in war crimes. I find that highly unlikely - I find it more likely that they didn't partake in high-profile war crimes. I don't think there's been a unit of soldiers ever deployed to a hot zone that's not committed some form of war crime.
The average German soldier fought for the country, not for Hitler. Most soldiers weren't raised as ubermensch, and while they obeyed their orders, they weren't issuing them. Soldiers don't have that option in a lot of cases. Sure, many Germans weren't favourably disposed towards Jews or Russians, but that's true of every single society ever at this point in time. And let's talk about German mistreatment of Russian POWs. Nobody really knows who started that, but we do know that the USSR hadn't signed the Geneva Conventions, and they both fought that way. 95% of common soldiers taken at Stalingrad died in the gulags. The war in the East was huger and far more brutal on both sides. You're acting like you don't know this, and it absolutely tempered both sides to a new level of cruelty. The same thing happened in the Pacific Theatre. Japanese prisoners of war were taken only when the US forces fighting them were ordered, because the Japanese were violent towards prisoners. Once one side starts, both sides do it, no matter who's involved. I'm not excusing these things, but they happened. And if you are going to accept that some bands sing some songs about, say, the USMC, a lot of their history is just as bloody as the average guy from 7th Panzer Division.
But, to bring the discussion back to the beginning, the few cases of German soldiery in WW2 that Sabaton has sung about in a praiseful manner - and, let me get this straight, I can think of only three (Ghost Division, No Bullets Fly, Hearts of Iron) are very carefully selected for units that were not war crimes-ridden, individual acts of valour or humanity, or men trying to save lives from the horrible Stalinist storm that destroyed many, many, many Germans. Most dedicated historians don't consider Sabaton to be far-right, nor do they consider them to be fascist or neo-fascist. The second they sing a song that, to me, sounds like they support actual Nazism, rather than chronicling events, I'll cut them loose, and happily.
Yes, SOME people were committed Nazis. Some followed orders in the Wehrmacht, some Nazis disobeyed orders, saved lives, or tried just to get by. But when we look at this in a historical standpoint, there's two thoughts I have to share. The first is innocent until proven guilty. History allows us to make judgement about the members of the Waffen-SS very easily because of the rigorous pro-Nazi testing that you had to undergo even to join the unit. You've said there's some units of the Waffen-SS that didn't partake in war crimes. I find that highly unlikely - I find it more likely that they didn't partake in high-profile war crimes. I don't think there's been a unit of soldiers ever deployed to a hot zone that's not committed some form of war crime.
The average German soldier fought for the country, not for Hitler. Most soldiers weren't raised as ubermensch, and while they obeyed their orders, they weren't issuing them. Soldiers don't have that option in a lot of cases. Sure, many Germans weren't favourably disposed towards Jews or Russians, but that's true of every single society ever at this point in time. And let's talk about German mistreatment of Russian POWs. Nobody really knows who started that, but we do know that the USSR hadn't signed the Geneva Conventions, and they both fought that way. 95% of common soldiers taken at Stalingrad died in the gulags. The war in the East was huger and far more brutal on both sides. You're acting like you don't know this, and it absolutely tempered both sides to a new level of cruelty. The same thing happened in the Pacific Theatre. Japanese prisoners of war were taken only when the US forces fighting them were ordered, because the Japanese were violent towards prisoners. Once one side starts, both sides do it, no matter who's involved. I'm not excusing these things, but they happened. And if you are going to accept that some bands sing some songs about, say, the USMC, a lot of their history is just as bloody as the average guy from 7th Panzer Division.
But, to bring the discussion back to the beginning, the few cases of German soldiery in WW2 that Sabaton has sung about in a praiseful manner - and, let me get this straight, I can think of only three (Ghost Division, No Bullets Fly, Hearts of Iron) are very carefully selected for units that were not war crimes-ridden, individual acts of valour or humanity, or men trying to save lives from the horrible Stalinist storm that destroyed many, many, many Germans. Most dedicated historians don't consider Sabaton to be far-right, nor do they consider them to be fascist or neo-fascist. The second they sing a song that, to me, sounds like they support actual Nazism, rather than chronicling events, I'll cut them loose, and happily.
Black Wizard
Pleb Hunter
Will it be receiving a medal?
No. But I might print it out and post it on my wall as a reminder that something like this must never happen again.
It must be a German thing. You start something in good spirit, it spins out of control and in the end all the guilt and shame rests on you forever.
It must be a German thing. You start something in good spirit, it spins out of control and in the end all the guilt and shame rests on you forever.
Good read, thanks all.
I don't see how you did anything wrong.
Cornfed Hick
Ancient Mariner
You've pretty much just summed up the human condition entirely. Don't sweat it.
Forostar
Ancient Mariner
Come on mate... let's not lose this much spirit. Harrisdevot said some strong things but also let us know that he just had discovered Sabaton and his 2nd post of this page (4) means something as well.
Discussing WWII can shake things up, and imo it was good that there was some room for it. I am pretty sure that if people wish to continue that they can in e.g. the War topic.
I am sure most people appreciate this topic (harrisdevot included since he contributed).
We're not blaming you anything, no need to feel guilty or be ashamed!
*Thumbs up!*