World War I & II topic

Wästed The Great said:
As was implied before, documentaries can be very biased. They are like statistics, and can tell you whatever you want them to. They have a tendency to make the facts seem fuzzy.
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Ew statistics. P values and shit. Why oh why did I choose biology? Oh that's right, apart from statistics, it's fun.
 
I would think that there are very few people alive today that actively participated in the Nazi atrocities, and if they are alive they'd likely be so elderly that what purpose would it serve to incarcerate them. Instead we need to focus on the new Neo-Nazi groups that seem to be popping up. We can laugh and say that they're are such a minority that they pose no threat. Yet in Germany in the late 1920's, the original Nazi party was the minority that everybody thought was a joke and would amount to nothing.
 
LooseCannon said:
It seems to me that "I saw a documentary once" might settle slightly lower than "the opinion of a German with a degree in history".
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No matter which you give more credibility to:

The majority of people today have no live memory of the Second World War. Even fewer are old enough to be guilty of anything. The age of criminal responsibility is 14-15 years in most of the countries who saw war crimes during the war. That means that the youngest people who can possibliy have been old enough to both commit war crimes and be held responsible for them today, must be more than 80 years old. The number of such people cannot be very high. Should we really use much resources on trying to bring one or two more to justice? I can't see how drawing a line now and saying "iz finished" will give any bad signals.

In fact, I think that making an issue out of this now looks like a will to let the punishment go on to the next generations. What good can possibly come out of that?
 
Forostar said:
Bearfan, I am not sure if I would find many (let alone a few) actors who had such a controversial past as someone being in the Waffen SS.
Enlighten me if you find other "past associations" of the same level. Don't forget that this person also lied about it. And the channel MAX is focussed on older people, basically people for whom WWII is a lot "closer" than younger/average viewers.
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I do not think being in the Waffen SS as automatically being guilty of something. I assume he was a petty late arrival into the SS or a transfer from the Wehrmacht otherwise he probably would have had an SS tattoo with his blood type that the allies used post-war to identify members of the SS. While that was not a perfect system (some did not get them .. namely transfers and those brought in towards the end .. and some not in the SS got them ... mainly Army soldiers wounded and treated in SS hospitals).

As for past associations, I am sure over the years there were a number of Germans who were in various Nazi organizations, as there are now probably many East Germans, Poles, Romanians, Bulgarians, etc that were tied to the Communist governments and various organizations, as well as French, Dutch, Belgians, etc that either collaborated or tolerated the German occupation.

Lying about it is probably understandable as I am sure people with other associations that I mentioned probably did the same. Stating you used to be in the SS is probably not the best career move.
 
Perun said:
Really? A documentary? Who made it? Who was the target audience? By what standards was there a lack of action? What was the interest in making it? When was it made? What was the title? Why don't you become chief prosecutor?
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This was uncalled for.

At first I wasn't really motivated to continue but I still searched a while, but I couldn't find it (yet).
I can tell you that it was a Dutch journalist going to the Central Office of the State Justice Administrations for the Investigation of National Socialist Crimes. He asked a lot of smart and confrontational questions and the head of the bureau cooperated pretty well. At some point one of the workers admitted that they don't have enough staff to do much. Which showed that the German government didn't really find it very important.

This said, since John Demjanjuk conviction, a precedent was established. Hundreds of old files could be reopened for further investigation. And that's why we see what's happening now. The lack of action before Demjanjuk corresponds with what I told.
 
Forostar said:
This was uncalled for.

At first I wasn't really motivated to continue but I still searched a while, but I couldn't find it (yet).
I can tell you that it was a Dutch journalist going to the Central Office of the State Justice Administrations for the Investigation of National Socialist Crimes. He asked a lot of smart and confrontational questions and the head of the bureau cooperated pretty well. At some point one of the workers admitted that they don't have enough staff to do much. Which showed that the German government didn't really find it very important.

This said, since John Demjanjuk conviction, a precedent was established. Hundreds of old files could be reopened for further investigation. And that's why we see what's happening now. The lack of action before Demjanjuk corresponds with what I told.
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Quoted for posterity.
 
maidenn.c.indiana said:
I would think that there are very few people alive today that actively participated in the Nazi atrocities, and if they are alive they'd likely be so elderly that what purpose would it serve to incarcerate them.
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The longer it takes, the less important it seems to outsiders. But not to the victims. Family members of people who were murdered by those who have been protected by German authorities want justice. It's very painful for families of victims when they don't have cooperation.
Dr. Eddies Wingman said:
That means that the youngest people who can possibliy have been old enough to both commit war crimes and be held responsible for them today, must be more than 80 years old. The number of such people cannot be very high.
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Unfortunately. Unfortunately. The numbers were higher if more effort was made to get them some decades ago.
 
Forostar said:
This was uncalled for.
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It wasn't really, because as I said, it's always easy to point your finger at others if you're not in the middle of it.

This said, since John Demjanjuk conviction, a precedent was established. Hundreds of old files could be reopened for further investigation. And that's why we see what's happening now. The lack of action before Demjanjuk corresponds with what I told.
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I really don't know what you actually expect. Reading your posts, one could get the impression that there's been nothing done from the side of the German government. And that's just not true. The precedent you talk of was set in 1965, with the Frankfurt Auschwitz Trials. Ever since, there have been prosecutions and trials. They weren't always very spectacular, and in many cases, prosecution is difficult. You can't simply try someone for having been in the Waffen-SS or the Wehrmacht, because the de-nazification policy of the 1940s made the charges of merely having been in an organisation void. You have to actually be able to prove that these people committed those crimes, and that is not always possible. You had to be able to set the right standards, so that you don't put the entire male population of Germany on trial. It's difficult. It's unfair. Yes. But you can't devote the entire legal system of a country to that job, because otherwise, it won't be able to establish and maintain a society that makes sure these things never happen again.

When things become unbearable, the population also gets its say. These things are not taught outside of Germany, but following the 1965 Auschwitz verdicts, the population of Western Germany, especially the young ones who did not witness the war, started to question everybody's pasts. It was discovered that many former nazi functionaries worked as judges, journalists, professors, teachers, officials and whatnot. There was a major movement to remove all these people from their offices, and the success rate cannot always be measured by numbers and facts. What was left was a number of SS officers who guarded concentration camps and were not even always German, so did not get into the focus of German jurisdiction. To the individual victims, it may seem unfair that some of the people who actually pulled the triggers were never brought to justice. But just try and point out to me one single country in the world that so effectively got rid of its nazi scum that it has to actively seek out the last surviving Waffen-SS officers in the last corners of the world. Sure, there was always more that could have been done. But why not, for once, focus on the positive? I hate Germany, but not for the way it has dealt with its nazi past.

Finally, I must raise the question of moral standards. Tappert was wrong to lie about his past. He was never challenged or questioned over what he did in the war. We don't know if he gassed any Jews or shot any babies. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. He's dead now. Are you going to boycott old Derrick reruns? Do you agree with pulling his show from oldie channels? I don't ask you in person Foro, but the general public. If you consider that right, then I must challenge you to never use a ThyssenKrupp lift or escalator anymore (Thyssen and Krupp were two of the most important industries in nazi Germany). If you go to Germany, don't use the Deutsche Bahn (the company it evolved from, the Reichsbahn, administered death camp transports). Forget about driving a Volkswagen (the name alone should tell you everything). And don't ever, ever think about using an AGFA film, a BASF tape (OK, these two are more or less obsolete anyway), or taking a Bayer Aspirin pill anymore in your life (these companies belonged to IG Farben, which delivered Zykon B to nazi death camps). None of these companies or their executives ever received a punishment that was in relation to the actual crimes they were responsible for.

Yeah, it sucks to be German.
 
Perun said:
Sure, there was always more that could have been done. But why not, for once, focus on the positive? I hate Germany, but not for the way it has dealt with its nazi past.
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The way Germany dealt with it. But what I meant has to do with it.

Now it's easier to explain because I have found that TV program. It features Dutch, German and English language. It is part of a series in which someone does an utmost attempt, trying to get 2 Dutch war criminals behind bars.

Here is the episode that focuses on the work the Germans do in the Zentrale Stelle, in Ludwigsburg. The main question is: How active is the current search for war criminals?
http://www.uitzendinggemist.nl/afleveringen/1274042
At the beginning you see a Dutch professor stating that this institute is a masquerade, but the journalist decides to go there himself, with an open mind. Around the 4th/5th minute he enters the building.

The guy asks some annoying questions in the beginning, but I really hope you will see the whole thing. It's very interesting what the Germans tell him.

I will pick out certain "highlights":
In the 9th minute the question to the head of the bureau is asked: what is going on today?
Within the answer, it is made clear that most work is currently done in foreign archives. The organization is very active. But it raises the question: what went on with the war criminals within German the borders?

Now go to 10.30:
700.000 war criminals in the archive
172.294 persons were checked
36.000 trials
Most trials were done by allied forces in the aftermath of WWII. Since the foundation of the Bureau in 1958 only 563 people have been convicted. That is until 2005. It is unknown what happened after that.

Then the Dutch professor says the number of people who were working on it in 1958: 11!
And now it is: 18

At 15:30 it is stated that no research is being done with Belzec (hundreds of thousands murdered jews).
Apart from 1(!) person from the DDR, no one who worked in this camp was prosecuted.
The accusation that this Dutch professor makes is as follows:
A German court of law has said: "we're not going to do this"

The question is raised to the head of the bureau. He says:
I don't know what happened with the case Belzec. But since Demjanjuk we have changed our tasks and now we are researching Belzec. 1(!) person is busy with this task.

Then another accusation is made by the Dutch professor: German justice had been influenced by politics.
The head of the bureau says that he was never influenced.

Then the journalist goes to someone who worked 22 years for the secret service of the DDR. He was director of the Stasi department which hunted nazis. In fact he was the DDR equivalent of Kurt Schrimm, head in Ludwigsburg (Western Germany). He says that Ludwigsburg was a nazi washing machine. Not much came out of all these cases.

Then it gets deeper into East/West Germany. Because this man worked for the DDR he can not have insight into the files anymore. He says: we don't get access our own files. Because he is according to current views a täter ("criminal"). Täter are not allowed to see information about victims.

Nazis or war criminals that were convicted in the DDR, are -by rule- victims of DDR-justice, especially Stasi, when Stasi has done a case against someone.

He continues by saying that in the DDR the work was focused on victims of facism.
But that was not done in the Bundesrepublik. It was the opposite: From the beginning, nazis and war criminals had an advantage.

Hundreds of thousands of Nazi beambten were given a job; even war criminals were given jobs in several secret services. Also they took back the blood judges; nazi-judges.

This shows the differences between east and west. And it shows how nazi-criminals were protected. Especially the big ones. The elite.

Back to the west, the man in Ludwigsburg. He says that what the Dutch professor says, is not true. And he accuses the DDR of protecting nazis (with an an example of a doctor who did tests on humans in concentration camps and who later could continue as a renowned doctor; travelling the world, making money etc.). From higher hand it was forbidden to make a case against her. That would never have happened in Western Germany.

So, Germany is united, but the nazi hunters from east and west have no good words about eachother's work.

Then the program continues with the search to a Dutch war criminal, Klaas Bruins. He hopes he can find something in Ludwigsburg. He shows a file of this man and the head of the bureau is willing to add it to the archives.

Then the Dutch professor says that the Zentrale Stelle has convicted for Jew murder, in the last 20 years: 4 people. 4 foreigners. Not a single German.

So he says that in the last 20 years, a lot of the work (or rather: lack of) needs to be explained.

There has been more persecution towards people from foreign countries or Eastern Germany than towards people from Western Germany.

The woman says that especially older people suddenly stir when she talks about her job. It motivates her to continue searching.
 
Perun said:
Sure, there was always more that could have been done. But why not, for once, focus on the positive? I hate Germany, but not for the way it has dealt with its nazi past.
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I admire Germany for being so open about what happened in the war. I have stated this several times and will continue to do so.
Perun said:
Finally, I must raise the question of moral standards. Tappert was wrong to lie about his past. He was never challenged or questioned over what he did in the war. We don't know if he gassed any Jews or shot any babies. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. He's dead now. Are you going to boycott old Derrick reruns? Do you agree with pulling his show from oldie channels? I don't ask you in person Foro, but the general public. If you consider that right, then I must challenge you to never use a ThyssenKrupp lift or escalator anymore (Thyssen and Krupp were two of the most important industries in nazi Germany). If you go to Germany, don't use the Deutsche Bahn (the company it evolved from, the Reichsbahn, administered death camp transports). Forget about driving a Volkswagen (the name alone should tell you everything). And don't ever, ever think about using an AGFA film, a BASF tape (OK, these two are more or less obsolete anyway), or taking a Bayer Aspirin pill anymore in your life (these companies belonged to IG Farben, which delivered Zykon B to nazi death camps). None of these companies or their executives ever received a punishment that was in relation to the actual crimes they were responsible for.
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Add Dutch railways and several other companies I am not boycotting. I don't think Derrick has to be cancelled, but I am not so allergic either. That is because I make the distinction between showing (celebrating) a person with a certain role and using the Bahn operated by people who had nothing to do with the war.
The broadcaster is an independent organ, and can decide themselves what they do. If the government would have forbidden MAX to broadcast something, now that is something else.

Most important is for me that information should be available. It should be available what organizations have done in the past, it should be available what people have done in the past. It's all free to people who can make up their own minds. If people who are suspected of crimes are still alive, I encourage any effort that can be done, to bring them to justice, no matter how long it takes.
 
So what's under fire here is essentially that people have to go to the prosecutors, and make them start the investigations.

I still find it inexplicable that the Frankfurt Auschwitz Trials get no mention. Not mentioning them is demonstrating a fundamental lack of knowledge about post-war German history.

You know Foro, I'm not denying that there was a lot that should have been done where there was nothing done. I just really find statements like, "it's easier to do nothing" or that there have been no attempts for prosecution to be revolting and offensive, especially when mine and other parents defined their youth by getting rid of old nazi scum.
 
That statement was indeed on the provocative side (tempted by the pinpointing post) and that was not good.
I apologize for the unrest it caused, Perun. I hope the later posts were of less offensive nature.
 
Interesting, I'll look for that book. It might not have been bad if the Germans fought with the Allies a bit longer and headed East.
 
New story about a 98 year old Hungarian living in Minnesota being charge with war crimes. He was found guilty in absentia in 1948 and got a death sentence by a Slovak court. It was reduced to life imprisonment in March of this year.

I am of mixed feelings on this, I am not sure how accurate a 1948 verdict is given he was not there to defend himself and if that should be upheld or he should get a new trial.

Also, he is 98 if there is a new trial or the existing verdict upheld, I am not sure what locking up a 98 year old man does ... even if he is guilty .. he essentially got away with it.

I wonder if at this point with people like this (and pretty soon anyone that had anything to do with this will be dead by natural causes) ... should be given the option to not go to prison and live out their lives if they come clean with what they did and everything they know about what happened. At this point getting the truth and more information might serve a better good. Obviously guilty, innocent, whatever, this guy will be a pariah wherever he lives out his remaining days.


http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/...tion-torture-of-jews-during-world-war-ii?lite
 
Historians and film experts have worked two years on a 90 minute film, consisting only of historical footage from the Warsaw Uprising, so no new shots were added. It was turned into colour, and new sound was added.
If you ask me, the trailer already looks quite stunning.
 
Interesting. I am not sure how I like colorized archival footage being spun into a plot .... worth checking out though
 
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