World War I & II topic

I completely support the idea of marking the end of National Socialism and the surrender of the Wehrmacht as good things, because that's what they were. I am happy that I got to grow up in a liberal democracy, and that the hardest restrictions I ever had to face in my life are the ones I am currently undergoing in the Corona lockdown. I am glad that Nazi defeat was so complete that 75 years onward, their ideology is still considered so toxic and wrong that the overwhelming majority of Germans will publicly oppose it and a political party propagating it can not gain even 15% of German votes.

Having said that, I know that the end of the Second World War marked the transition from one dictatorship to another in many European countries, including a significant part of Germany. I grew up as a West Berliner/West German, so I didn't have to face that, but seeing how it's merely a ten minute walk from my place to a memorial for a person who got shot while trying to climb the Berlin Wall, it's hard not to feel that a lot of people were forced to take the wrong turn after 1945. Not to mention that my girlfriend is from a former Communist country that had a particularly bloody transition when occupied by the Soviets.

I also feel uncomfortable with the fact that Berlin chooses terminology used in the Communist period to mark this day, specifically "Liberation Day". It's hard to find one single word to mark a historical day and its complexities - personally, I don't think it should be done. I think there are other, better ways to deal with history than declaring a bank holiday.
 
I struggle a bit with what the celebration (here) is aiming for. A celebration of peace and freedom from persecution, I welcome, but I'm not a huge fan of flag waving and 'winning' being the main focus for most people. There are two present day political aspects to this celebration, too, which taints it.
 
Young me thought of it as the day that "we" won a great victory over "them".

Old, wise me thinks of it as the day that thankfully, much of the killing stopped. Not all of it, and certainly not in places where the Soviet Union had claimed new satellites. But much of it.

And cynical me wonders if the damage done if the Allies had pushed the Soviets back would have outweighed the damage caused by the subsequent 45 years of Communist rule. But we can never truly know the answer to that.
 
LooseCannon said:
And cynical me wonders if the damage done if the Allies had pushed the Soviets back would have outweighed the damage caused by the subsequent 45 years of Communist rule. But we can never truly know the answer to that.
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I doubt there was much appetite for that once the Nazis and Japanese had surrendered.
 
Not the one to defend Soviet atrocities but they did have one redeeming factor at the end - sort of accept the cultural defeat and go home. Germany played quite a factor, providing $ for camps and tents, food and stuff for the huge ex-Soviet army left over in ex-Warsaw Pact countries slowly going back into Russia. Russia was broke and had no means to take care of its own army's peaceful retreat. Last units were reintegrated in 1994.
 
Brigantium said:
I struggle a bit with what the celebration (here) is aiming for. A celebration of peace and freedom from persecution, I welcome, but I'm not a huge fan of flag waving and 'winning' being the main focus for most people. There are two present day political aspects to this celebration, too, which taints it.
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Personally, all the flag waving 'holidays' make me uncomfortable. Even more so when militarism gets combined with nationalism, as has increasingly become the case I feel. Victory in Europe rings a bit hollow when you think of all the atrocities that were going to be committed shortly thereafter (I'm thinking in particular of the atomic bomb).
 
I'm watching more of the BBC's VE Day coverage. They're at Buckingham Palace doing what I can only describe as an old person's Top of the Pops with popular songs from the era. All the musicians are spaced 2m apart though.

The BBC have definitely been telling stories about the people rather than being all Britain Britain Britain. Joanna Lumley just did a video chat with an old Scottish lady called Edna who was getting her long overdue medals from her service for whatever she did in the war. There was a fucking bagpiper too.
 
The BBC will likely do it tastefully. I'm fine with pipers, although prefer to keep them at a distance.

I used to work with someone who played bagpipes in his spare time, and he was known to practice in the cellar at work. It was very weird. He also practised on the moor a few times, but people kept trying to give him loose change.
 
Darkest Hour - the film about Winston Churchill in the early days of WW2 - is on TV now. It features the "we will fight them on the beaches" speech so perhaps I'll splice the film with 'Aces High'.
 
My Dad has been looking up records on Ancestry dot com and has found a WWI pension and discharge document for my great-grandfather. He appears to have been injured in action. He was a sergeant in a Yorkshire regiment, not sure exactly which one.

Interestingly, although this may be down to incorrect recording or even interpretation of handwriting (I had great fun with handwriting styles when I created a surname index for a local census records archive), it appears the family name changed slightly some time between 1901 and 1918. The older form of the surname doesn't appear to be in use anywhere today, and I suspect it's an old fashioned name for a coal miner.
 
LooseCannon said:
Young me thought of it as the day that "we" won a great victory over "them".

Old, wise me thinks of it as the day that thankfully, much of the killing stopped. Not all of it, and certainly not in places where the Soviet Union had claimed new satellites. But much of it.

And cynical me wonders if the damage done if the Allies had pushed the Soviets back would have outweighed the damage caused by the subsequent 45 years of Communist rule. But we can never truly know the answer to that.
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Also, why not liberate Spain and Portugal from fascist regimes too? They had to endure decades of dictatorship following WW2.
 
GhostofCain said:
Also, why not liberate Spain and Portugal from fascist regimes too? They had to endure decades of dictatorship following WW2.
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Ah, but they were smart enough to not get involved in the first place. It would've been near-impossible for the allies to justify yet another campaign, given that:
- Spain and Portugal, in technically not having done anything wrong, did not present the allies with a legitimate casus belli
- Invading Spain means either going over the Pyrenees or staging another operation overlord
- Japan still needed to be dealt with, and IIRC the secrecy surrounding the Manhattan project meant that a lot of people still expected an invasion
 
Brigantium said:
My Dad has been looking up records on Ancestry dot com and has found a WWI pension and discharge document for my great-grandfather. He appears to have been injured in action. He was a sergeant in a Yorkshire regiment, not sure exactly which one.

Interestingly, although this may be down to incorrect recording or even interpretation of handwriting (I had great fun with handwriting styles when I created a surname index for a local census records archive), it appears the family name changed slightly some time between 1901 and 1918. The older form of the surname doesn't appear to be in use anywhere today, and I suspect it's an old fashioned name for a coal miner.
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That's really interesting and it reminds me of when we went through the records here for our family members, and my dad found out about the great-great uncles he never knew about, three older brothers of his great-granddad who never came home. The records are full of that sort of stuff and I bet there's thousands of untold family stories in them.

GhostofCain said:
Also, why not liberate Spain and Portugal from fascist regimes too? They had to endure decades of dictatorship following WW2.
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I agree with Woggy but also, I think it's important to note that liberation in the style indicated doesn't really work. All that being said, I think if Franco had joined in then the Allies would have dealt with him fairly quickly.
 
Forostar said:
On Market Garden. @Perun I read many good reviews on this particular book from 2018!

Arnhem: The Battle for the Bridges, 1944 / Antony Beevor
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I’m reading this now. I recently watched “A Bridge Too Far” again, which motivated me to learn more about Market Garden and led to my finding this book, which I was glad to see Beevor authored.

I’ve read Beevor’s works on The Battle for Spain (my favorite of his books), Stalingrad, The Fall of Berlin, and his overview you also mentioned “The Second World War.”
 
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Today in the UK Macron and Boris Johnson met to celebrate the 80th anniversary of a broadcast by Charles DeGaulle in (Innocent?) exile in the UK urging French people to resist against Nazi invasion. Am I alone in thinking that it is rather ironic to ask your countrymen and countrywomen to fight against the Nazis from the safety of UK exile??
 
Frenetic Heretic said:
I’m reading this now. I recently watched “A Bridge Too Far” again, which motivated me to learn more about Market Garden and led to my finding this book, which I was glad to see Beevor authored.

I’ve read Beevor’s works on The Battle for Spain (my favorite of his books), Stalingrad, The Fall of Berlin, and his overview you also mentioned “The Second World War.”
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Beevor’s books are highly recommended!
 
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