War starts as world parties
- Thread starter Perun
- Start date
Uhh....technically? VI Lenin.
Perun said:
It depends when the Georgian SSR was formed, I guess.
Actually, the borders of Russia-Georgia have existed since Tsarist times. Peculiar, eh?
Forostar said:
I'm not denying it's planned to an extent, Foro, but as Zare can tell you, Russia keeps some military force in the Caucasus because of the unrest there. After all, there's a lil place called Chechnya not so far away.
Plus, for a Russian military that has tens of thousands of vehicles, to deploy a small percentage of them near a volatile border is not that difficult. Besides, they're not even main armoured forces. Mostly reserves, as I understand.
What I'm trying to say is this: for Canada or Holland, a few hundred vehicles in a few hours is a major feat. For Russia, it's a drop in the hat.
D
Deleted member 7164
Guest
You know what they did? A clumsy blitzkrieg attack. They tried to regain Ossetia, but Ossetian troops and Russian peacekeepers managed to hold them off. Aren't you reading my posts? 58th army is stationed around Vladikavkaz and Dagestan. 4th air army is stationed in Krasnodar and Rostov. That's almost bordering Georgia. 58th army has been stationed there since 1995, while 4th air army is there for last sixteen years.
Your "obvious" weights no logic. Russia drafted units from nearest corps. If that's called planned invasion, then they must have been planning it for 10+ years, and if you are going into invasion with 0.00000001 of warpower you got, then i'd better start relearning my terminology again, because invasion stands for something different in my book.
Some more news :
Four Georgian patrol boats have attacked small Russian missile boat. Russian boat destroyed one with cruise missile, while other three disengaged. Slava-class battlecruiser "Moscow" is on route to conflict area, together with assault ships "Kunikov" and "Saratov". Each assault ship is well-defended on it's own, with multiple gun points and missile launchers. Kunikov, smaller, carries 225 marines and 500 tons of vehicles, while Saratov can carry 1500 tons of payload.
Now, ladies and gents, take a look at this :
These are western-media pictures depicting "Russian bombings" of Georgian areas. At first, they look hoorible. At second, you may see that the casuality from the first picture is in entirely different position in second picture, while the crying guy from first picture works now as humanitarian, and even managed to change his clothes and wash himself in the middle of the burning city.
I dunno, the humanitarian fellow looks similar, but I wouldn't say it's the same fellow exactly. Could be, though.
Let's face it, though. There are people dying horribly, and there are videos and pictures. If the Georgians sent out some doctored photos, it doesn't mean people *aren't* dying. It just means they're practising disinformation, standard operating procedure for any armed conflict.
According to the BBC, Georgia has withdrawn its troops from Ossetia.
I also think it's a bit of bullshit for Putin to claim Georgia was committing "genocide". Fighting the Ossetians, possibly, but I don't believe there was genocide there. The UN has watchdogs in the areas and hasn't said anything, which is usually a good sign that there isn't any major slaughterings going on. Just the usual atrocities.
Looks like Russia is going to "win" this one. Surprise, surprise. I don't think it was "planned" any more than you would expect it to be, I am sure the Russians have contingencies in place for a lot of things, say, a Georgian attack on Russian forces in Ossetia. But again, 10,000 or so troops, a few hundred vehicles isn't so much for Russia. They're certainly not hitting with everything they have to.
I'd argue they are using just enough force to get it done, again, possibly to provoke the Georgians. But I don't think this is anything close to the full might of the Russian military.
Let's face it, though. There are people dying horribly, and there are videos and pictures. If the Georgians sent out some doctored photos, it doesn't mean people *aren't* dying. It just means they're practising disinformation, standard operating procedure for any armed conflict.
According to the BBC, Georgia has withdrawn its troops from Ossetia.
I also think it's a bit of bullshit for Putin to claim Georgia was committing "genocide". Fighting the Ossetians, possibly, but I don't believe there was genocide there. The UN has watchdogs in the areas and hasn't said anything, which is usually a good sign that there isn't any major slaughterings going on. Just the usual atrocities.
Looks like Russia is going to "win" this one. Surprise, surprise. I don't think it was "planned" any more than you would expect it to be, I am sure the Russians have contingencies in place for a lot of things, say, a Georgian attack on Russian forces in Ossetia. But again, 10,000 or so troops, a few hundred vehicles isn't so much for Russia. They're certainly not hitting with everything they have to.
I'd argue they are using just enough force to get it done, again, possibly to provoke the Georgians. But I don't think this is anything close to the full might of the Russian military.
____no5
Free Man
Zare said:
nice remark
not 100% to put the blame on, though =it is based on the principes of modern (?) journalism :
the information must be 'pictured' for its easiest diffusion
in above case western journalists probably payed some dimes the above people to have their reportage covered
that doesn't mean that there were no bombings at all though -just that the photos were fake
I had a conversation with two journalists about this subject yesterday
-they agreed with me that this is an aestheticly kitschy approach to information, and not so updated approach either
but they added that that's how it works for the moment
back to our subject of war, I would say in few words that we see the first consequences of Kosovo case ; more will follow
@Forostar : having so much hatred against Russia, and plus expressing it at every chance I don't find it is suitable for your principes
nor for the character of this forum where we supposed to try viewing the facts with the less prejudgement possible
____no5 said:
Look at it this way: Russia is blowing a regional conflict way out of proportion by bombing Georgian cities and harming innocent civilians. A report I read yesterday said the entire port of Poti was destroyed by a Russian air attack, and this is set to throw Georgia's economic development back by decades. As I said earlier, Georgia is fucked because Russia doesn't like it.
____no5
Free Man
I don't want to defend Russia, but really if we put apart the lack of democracy
I don't find great differences with the other big powers of this world
same arrogance, same 'vulgar display of power'
so to my eyes you sound a bit naif -dispite my appretiation to you
when you say big words like the world community or stuff like that :
I don't find great differences with the other big powers of this world
same arrogance, same 'vulgar display of power'
so to my eyes you sound a bit naif -dispite my appretiation to you
when you say big words like the world community or stuff like that :
Raven
Ancient Mariner
Forostar said:
Perhaps instead of lashing out at anyone and everyone who disagrees with your rather vehement posts, you should take a look at exactly how your posts appear to other people? Yes, this is an amateur forum, but one where we are supposed to be able to debate in a calm manner. Whether or not you back up your feelings with facts (and I know that you do), piling your posts high with polemicism is not going to convince anyone to agree with your point of view.
Just an observation.
As for the conflict itself, I don't know enough about the background to have as strong conclusions as Forostar and others. The way I see it, Georgia has kicked up a hornet's nest and is now paying the price. I think to cast Russia as the villain in this story is pretty erroneous, considering that Georgia (presumably) initiated the conflict. They're both as bad as each other, or am I missing the point? Whether Russia 'planned' for an attack over Ossetia or not is irrelevant, given that the death toll is going to rise on both sides unless the situation is defused and the problems are brought to the discussion table. That, however, sounds strangely familiar in Eastern Europe/Former USSR states...
____no5
Free Man
Raven got the point,
and this I was meant when saying that Perun, LC and Zare do the approach with the right way : they rest calm
I'm ready to hear both sides but let's stay calm for the sake of the pleasure to discuss
-----
Foro, if I was not appreciated you I would have left it without answering,
but for the people that we admire we don't want to see them reacting like this -that's all really
and this I was meant when saying that Perun, LC and Zare do the approach with the right way : they rest calm
I'm ready to hear both sides but let's stay calm for the sake of the pleasure to discuss
-----
Foro, if I was not appreciated you I would have left it without answering,
but for the people that we admire we don't want to see them reacting like this -that's all really
Raven
Ancient Mariner
Forostar said:
Completely irrelevant to the topic at hand, and not a double standard on my part in the slightest. I acted rashly in a post which is nearly a year old, I apologised, and I thought we had moved on from that. I'm quite disappointed to see that you insist on digging up the past to score points.
Forostar said:
...he says, as he resorts to point-scoring. I think I'll leave this thread and the forum for a while, until the latest Forostar spat is over. They seem to come with predictable regularity, so I guess I was next in line for being criticised for offering some constructive advice.
Let me make this clear.
I will close this thread if people are going to attack each other personally. We're all adults here, or damn close to it. Raven may have made some ridiculous posts in the past, but so have we all. no5 made a valid point that Foro has made some vehement posts, and others have pointed out that generally this is an exception.
But if it becomes the rule for *anyone*, we'll act appropriately.
Let's act like grownups.
Okay, having said all that. Forostar likely has a lot of reasons to dislike Russia. Let's remember the West had high hopes for Russia following the fall of the USSR. It hasn't lived up to those hopes at all, especially in the Putin years.
But Russia is a very *young* democracy. And unlike many Eastern European nations that were Communist and now no longer are, Russia has no longstanding democratic tradition. So, Russia has only had rule by the people for, what...about 15 years now out of however many hundreds of years the Russian state has existed? It is going to take time, perhaps lifetimes, for a true democratic tradition to blossom in Russia. And we must understand this when analyzing Russia.
Plus, while Russia is not a *good* place right now, it is not nearly as *bad* a place as it has been, say, in the early 1930s. So let's keep that in mind, too, when we're thinking about it.
I don't think Georgia is to blame, or Russia is to blame, or NATO is to blame, or the Ossetians are to blame.
It's too complex for that. We can't point one finger. Let's point a thousand and we're still not close to the truth, aye?
I will close this thread if people are going to attack each other personally. We're all adults here, or damn close to it. Raven may have made some ridiculous posts in the past, but so have we all. no5 made a valid point that Foro has made some vehement posts, and others have pointed out that generally this is an exception.
But if it becomes the rule for *anyone*, we'll act appropriately.
Let's act like grownups.
Okay, having said all that. Forostar likely has a lot of reasons to dislike Russia. Let's remember the West had high hopes for Russia following the fall of the USSR. It hasn't lived up to those hopes at all, especially in the Putin years.
But Russia is a very *young* democracy. And unlike many Eastern European nations that were Communist and now no longer are, Russia has no longstanding democratic tradition. So, Russia has only had rule by the people for, what...about 15 years now out of however many hundreds of years the Russian state has existed? It is going to take time, perhaps lifetimes, for a true democratic tradition to blossom in Russia. And we must understand this when analyzing Russia.
Plus, while Russia is not a *good* place right now, it is not nearly as *bad* a place as it has been, say, in the early 1930s. So let's keep that in mind, too, when we're thinking about it.
I don't think Georgia is to blame, or Russia is to blame, or NATO is to blame, or the Ossetians are to blame.
It's too complex for that. We can't point one finger. Let's point a thousand and we're still not close to the truth, aye?
I'd put you in a time out but we all know the fence that can hold off a Mexican hasn't yet been built.
Here's something interesting:
The US is saying that during a phone conversation with Condi, the Russian ambassador said that the president of Georgia had to be removed. When this was announced at the UN, the Russians said the conversation was meant to be kept private but didn't deny the allegations. I find that peculiar.
The US is saying that during a phone conversation with Condi, the Russian ambassador said that the president of Georgia had to be removed. When this was announced at the UN, the Russians said the conversation was meant to be kept private but didn't deny the allegations. I find that peculiar.