USA Politics
- Thread starter Genghis Khan
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______no5 said:
Come on mate, are you really telling me you are confusing government and society? Sure, the Chinese society may be traditional and wonderful, but that is just not what I am talking about. I mean the government, regime, those people sitting in the palaces and ruling the people. The ones claiming to be in the service of the people, but put people in prison and kill them. Any government that needs to resort to oppression and violence against its own people hasn't got a single token of legitimacy in my eyes. It doesn't matter if one does it less than another- even if they imprison a single person for political reasons it is too much.
They used to be an empire in the classic sense, when they occupied colonial possessions like Cuba and the Philippines. Now they are an empire in the modern sense.
The USA was certainly an imperial power in the 1800s, when they invaded a sovereign nation (Mexico) for the sole purpose of getting land, when they murdered millions of natives to make sure they had no problem holding that land, and when they fought a jingoistic war with another imperial power to seize some of their colonies (Spain). Just because the age of European empire in the Americas was over doesn't mean that the USA can't have acted like one.
Now? They are re-defining the term, using political and economic controls. Don't get me wrong - I'm glad to have them on my side, but hey. Part of knowing history is appreciating every part of it. Don't gloss over the details.
The USA was certainly an imperial power in the 1800s, when they invaded a sovereign nation (Mexico) for the sole purpose of getting land, when they murdered millions of natives to make sure they had no problem holding that land, and when they fought a jingoistic war with another imperial power to seize some of their colonies (Spain). Just because the age of European empire in the Americas was over doesn't mean that the USA can't have acted like one.
Now? They are re-defining the term, using political and economic controls. Don't get me wrong - I'm glad to have them on my side, but hey. Part of knowing history is appreciating every part of it. Don't gloss over the details.
Kinda...I would say they were more of that during the Cold War than now. We're really in a brave new world of economic closeness that is redefining what Empire could mean.
Global Economics? Where every 'major' nation has its fingers and strings mixed within everyone elses? Where Political borders are all that really separates what a nation is?
LooseCannon said:
I think that we're lacking the historical distance to properly assess the situation. This would certainly require a closer study, but I permit myself to postulate that we are currently experiencing globally what happened in Roman Republican times in the Mediterranean.
EDIT: The only question is, Who is Rome?
____no5
Free Man
Perun said:
No, no it was a side not, thus the small fond size.
Now, talking about the regime, you have a point, but don't forget that China isn't a democracy. Can't be either, due to huge population, everybody knows it. What you just described happens to a lot of 'democracies' in the world, and much smaller states than 1.5 billion. Take Turkey for instance. Somewhere else, is not political, but it's the corruption that kills, take Mexico or India. Somewhere else is huge criminality, take South Africa. So overall, with all its particularities, I think China is doing just fine.
More simple example: You tell me where I prefer to live Romania (EU state) or China, I choose China. This could apply for most of eastern European countries.
____no5
Free Man
Perun said:
A lot of Romanians, Ukrainians, Croatians etc tell me that 'before' was better. Now they have democracy but they live in poverty. In China people are happy. They have the basics, free health, education, they can even become rich. The system works well for the moment, why to change it?
Perun said:
US. It's 200 AD, currently.
______no5 said:
Ask the Tibetans, the Uyghurs, Falun Gong, Liu Xiaobo, Tank Man or Yan Xiaoling for a start. The people of China deserve freedom just like all other people in the world.
Come on 5, I know you are intelligent and well-educated. I can't believe you're falling for this crap.
____no5
Free Man
All these are not Chinese, they are autonomous regions. As far as I know, they have a lot of privileges. Basques & Corsicans too, they cry for independence, but everybody knows that they ain't go too far, even they will regret in case they do receive independence. So everybody laughs at them.
And don't forget that behind all these revolutions in China, or at least some of them, Westerns are behind. It's part of the game.
However, China could release those territories or to make a referendum to let the people choose. These territories do not participate that much to the Chinese miracle, only create troubles. I don't understand why China doesn't release them, or let them choose.
India is hugely corrupted, how many leaders were been murdered since Gandhi?? Huge populations live in absolute poverty. Not in China.
I don't think that democracy is something that should be applied in all costs. Life is practical and simple. And China is doing so much better than India, or Brazil or Russia. Lights years better, overall, in the every day life. And this is what is all about.
And don't forget that behind all these revolutions in China, or at least some of them, Westerns are behind. It's part of the game.
However, China could release those territories or to make a referendum to let the people choose. These territories do not participate that much to the Chinese miracle, only create troubles. I don't understand why China doesn't release them, or let them choose.
Onhell said:
India is hugely corrupted, how many leaders were been murdered since Gandhi?? Huge populations live in absolute poverty. Not in China.
I don't think that democracy is something that should be applied in all costs. Life is practical and simple. And China is doing so much better than India, or Brazil or Russia. Lights years better, overall, in the every day life. And this is what is all about.
______no5 said:
This is just cynical. And, quite honestly, makes everything you said fall apart. There is a huge difference between Tibetans and Uyghurs, and Basques and Corsicans. And they are not privileged, at least not in any way that matters, because they are not free.
Besides, Falun Gong, Liu Xiaobo, Tank Man or Yan Xiaoling are Chinese. Check your facts.
______no5 said:
Wait, how do we know this? Because some of the people in the larger cities have internet (that is censored) and cable (that is censored)? Or are we talking about the millions of people that live in rural areas that have little to live on, no infrastructure, and have to kill their daughters so they can have sons to work the fields?
Perun said:
We must get drunk and discuss this some night on Skype or something.
I only have 3, 4 people on mine. So, no pressure.