USA Politics

Freedom is good, but you need to feed them first.
Click to expand...

Bingo! Only fed and fairly educated human can think of philosophical things like politics and freedom.

For instance, Soviet Union, collapsed because of economics. During the oil crisis whole world was affected, they weren't, they made profit out of it, and standard rose. Public opinion about government was pretty high back then. Glasnost and Perestroika were introduced not because of people and social system, but because of failing economy.

Other example is "Croatian Spring" of early 70s was carried out by intelligentsia, demanding more fair allocation of resources inside Yugoslavia and decentralization.
The people that carried out the movement were educated, fed and secured by that same system. If they weren't, they wouldn't have capacity to contemplate economics to figure out all the cons of centralized system and all the gimmicks and insides of that system's economy policy.

Today, a lot of people won't shout and try to change anything, because they're barely managing to live a normal life. People are afraid that they'll lose the little they have, and won't risk. Workers won't stand up to their employers that are abusing them because there's a chance they'll lose that pitiful amount of money they earn. Apathy.

In order to survive, people need to eat, drink water and sleep in adequate environment. First things first.
 
Ok 5, I can have this argument.

We can discuss China, but not India. Why not India? Their caste system and religiosity is what is oppressing it's people, not "democracy."

So... Practically... democracy vs. communism? caring for your people whether they are "free" or not? I have to say I completely agree with you. I am a staunch supporter of Castro in Cuba for that very reason. The U.S can talk shit all they want about Castro for taking their playground away, but the numbers don't lie, 97% (off the top of my head) literacy rate, some of the best doctors in the WORLD and when the Olympics (summer) come around who is usually behind powerhouses like the U.S, Russia and Germany? That's right, the puny island of Cuba... They are fed, educated (and well at that) and taken care of... is it a paradise? No. Are all Cubans happy? No, but neither are all Americans, or Germans or New Zealanders... which is why I HATE the phrase "pursuit of happiness." So fucking vague and frankly, meaningless.
 
Great post Onhell, have a praise  :)

I'd like to add, IMHO, most Americans don't approve Cuban system due to lack of commodities and economic "freedom".
However, most of that same Americans wouldn't have means to cure some bad illness that needs extended treatment.

Like i said, priorities first. I think that education and health are far more important than iPhone and chance of me being rich and famous one day.
But that's just me.
 
I start to believe that Communism, to succeed or not, it depends on the culture of the country (but finally so does democracy)

I was working in a Cuban bar in Paris so I had the opportunity to deal with a lot of Cuban people -including some really underground ones. While all were admitting the advantages of their system and there were a certain culture (imagine a soldier to be a chess master!!), still they were complaining, when they were speaking for their country. Not for the lack of freedom. Not at all. But for the very low salaries in their country.
I don't have seen this in Chinese. They seem happy and they all want to go back. Plus all the stories from the westerns that live there. They don't even complain about internet. I'm asking all the time: What about internet? No problem man. Norwegians, French, Germans. All enthusiasts about the country!

The information is filtered. What we learn about China, isn't that innocent. Is what they want us to know. This is my conclusion.
 
Zare said:
Like i said, priorities first. I think that education and health are far more important than iPhone and chance of me being rich and famous one day.
But that's just me.
Click to expand...

Thank you, and I REALLY agree with that.

______no5 said:
I start to believe that Communism, to succeed or not, it depends on the culture of the country (but finally so does democracy)
Click to expand...

That can be said every system though. Take "democracies" and "free economies". Scandinavia's social safety nets and benefits as well as culture work because of the homogeneity and size of their populations (about 5M per country and 98% "White"). One of the reasons the U.S is such a mess is because it has 300M people from all over the world who don't assimilate, because while they left their country, they don't want to let go of their traditions and instead of creating a new people, they create pockets (chinatown, Koreatown, "little mexico" etc). This problem is further compounded by the government in their lame attempt at equality and asking you on official documents and meaningless surveys: what "race" are you? How do they expect the "race problem" to go away if they keep making people conscious about it? So instead of working together as a society, they are too concerned who is getting what. Oh HE got the job because he is white, oh they just gave it to him because they need more black people to "represent," etc.... disgusting.

I was working in a Cuban bar in Paris so I had the opportunity to deal with a lot of Cuban people -including some really underground ones. While all were admitting the advantages of their system and there were a certain culture (imagine a soldier to be a chess master!!), still they were complaining, when they were speaking for their country. Not for the lack of freedom. Not at all. But for the very low salaries in their country.
I don't have seen this in Chinese. They seem happy and they all want to go back. Plus all the stories from the westerns that live there. They don't even complain about internet. I'm asking all the time: What about internet? No problem man. Norwegians, French, Germans. All enthusiasts about the country!

The information is filtered. What we learn about China, isn't that innocent. Is what they want us to know. This is my conclusion.
Click to expand...

The reason you don't see it in China is because the current president while socially Communist has become economically Capitalist and has actually created a Chinese middle class with wages comparable to the West. Cuba is not going to do that any time soon. I am VERY curios as to what will happen to the little island once the Castro Bros. (that should be a video game) die.
 
Onhell said:
This problem is further compounded by the government in their lame attempt at equality and asking you on official documents and meaningless surveys: what "race" are you?
Click to expand...

:blink: I didn't know that... You killed something in me for US, man. My American dream, damn you!  :P
 
______no5 said:
I start to believe that Communism, to succeed or not, it depends on the culture of the country (but finally so does democracy)
Click to expand...
There were the same theories going around about the Germans after WWII and the Japanese, they could not possibly every turn towards democracy.  It helped that they grew foreign markets fairly quickly aftere total defeat and the west helped them in the cold war, but China is developing the same markets and middle class, where perhaps not this generation, but the next will have had enough repression in other aspects of their lives.

I was working in a Cuban bar in Paris so I had the opportunity to deal with a lot of Cuban people -including some really underground ones. While all were admitting the advantages of their system and there were a certain culture (imagine a soldier to be a chess master!!), still they were complaining, when they were speaking for their country. Not for the lack of freedom. Not at all. But for the very low salaries in their country.
Click to expand...
Wonder where the low salaries come from, people in the US can complain about low wages, but still most have cable TV (incresiingly Hi Def) and are not exactly starving.  Lot of fat people who make little money here.

I don't have seen this in Chinese. They seem happy and they all want to go back. Plus all the stories from the westerns that live there. They don't even complain about internet. I'm asking all the time: What about internet? No problem man. Norwegians, French, Germans. All enthusiasts about the country!
Click to expand...

There is a certain patriotism with any country, where you will not run down your own country to "outsiders", but trash it internally.  Complaining loudy in Commy contries has not always been the most healthy move either.
 
bearfan said:
There is a certain patriotism with any country, where you will not run down your own country to "outsiders", but trash it internally.   Complaining loudy in Commy contries has not always been the most healthy move either.
Click to expand...

It could be out of patriotism at some point. The westerns who live there though, they don't have any interest. Plus, they have their countries to compare. I don't know, usually people who actually live and work in a country give reliable feed-back. And due to my job, I know a lot who live in China. Could be all wrong?
 
I am sure there are people who love living there and think it is a great palce, but keep in mind the group is self-selective, unless they were forced for move there, they must have had some affinity for China before they tookt he plunge.  There are some other countries I think I would like to live in and am sure I would speak nicely of them if I moved there.
 
You both have a point. But in this case there is no safe information. I mean, locals are patriots, westerns are treated better... Is it safer to trust the media, than real people?
I don't have positive feedback for countries like Russia, or Saudi Arabia and I don't think I give positive feedback from where I live, except a few things like cars. Everything I was told for here from real people, I found it, more or less. But the image of this country was way more brilliant through the media... 
 
bearfan said:
Wonder where the low salaries come from, people in the US can complain about low wages, but still most have cable TV (incresiingly Hi Def) and are not exactly starving.  Lot of fat people who make little money here.
Click to expand...

Good point.  The suggestion, if it is actually being made, that the average Cuban is "better off" economically than the average American is preposterous -- even in a time of economic trouble as America is experiencing now.  Moreover, the fact that Cuban immigrants living in Paris  "don't complain" about "freedom" but do complain about low wages misses the point spectacularly:  the low wages are no doubt in large part the inevitable result of the lack of economic freedom.  (Also, if Cuba is so great, why did they move to Paris?)  What do you think "liberty" and the "pursuit of happiness" is supposed to mean?  It's not just the ability to read and think whatever you want, screw any consenting adult you want, or practice any religion you want.  It's first and foremost the ability to do anything you want to make a living, and either succeed or fail at it on your own terms.  If there is no such freedom, then people will invariably be worse off.  This doesn't mean that there shouldn't be government safety nets or subsidized public goods like health care or education, nor am I suggesting that there is perfect economic freedom in the U.S.  There isn't.  Nevertheless, this thread is reminding me of an exchange from the brilliant new HBO series, Boardwalk Empire.

Jimmy:  I just want an opportunity.
Nucky:  This is America, isn't it?  What the fuck's stopping you?​

That pretty much nails what America is supposed to be about, for good or bad.  That American hasn't always lived up to it -- the race issue raised by Onhell is obviously, at least in part, a vestige of slavery, which is not only the opposite of economic freedom but the most shamefully immoral blight on American history -- doesn't mean it isn't a worthy ideal.  Slavery, after all, could never have worked had the GOVERNMENT not sanctioned it.  For all the ridicule that people like to level at the Tea Party folks -- many of whom are admittedly kooks and morons -- the notion that the government is not to be trusted to control people's economic lives truly does date back to 18th century thinkers like Locke and Jefferson.  People like to divorce the concepts of capitalism and freedom, but in fact, they are pretty much the same thing.  Do people with capital have more power?  Sure.  But how did they get that capital?  One of my clients grew up in poverty and started a business out of the back of his car -- that business grew to over 50,000 employees, and he is now worth hundreds of millions of dollars.  Sounds great, right?  So, "What the fuck's stopping you?" 

Also,
Onhell said:
One of the reasons the U.S is such a mess is because it has 300M people from all over the world who don't assimilate, because while they left their country, they don't want to let go of their traditions and instead of creating a new people, they create pockets (chinatown, Koreatown, "little mexico" etc). 
Click to expand...

Many would argue that this diversity is actually what makes America GREAT -- not a "mess."  I happen to agree. 
 
I liked that post.  :)

It's first and foremost the ability to do anything you want to make a living, and either succeed or fail at it on your own terms.
Click to expand...

Yes, this is what they were searching for.
 
The American Dream eh? Free will eh?

I will put some more fire in this discussion, and I'll quote a certain man, called Greg Graffin, an American:

....... In Western religions, the central metaphor for tragedy is sin. Humans are different from their Creator because God is perfect and we are not. God, however, gave us "free will" because we are his favorite creation. Humans must exert their free will to do good, despite being inherently sinful, in order to gain entry into heaven and live an eternal afterlife in paradise. Sin then becomes the justification for blame and punishment. You deserve to be punished if you don't exercise your free will to overcome your inherently sinful nature.

When tragedies befall others, we tend to look for the ways in which these others sinned instead of recognizing and considering the long chain of events that led up to the event in question. Was a robber desperate to feed a family? Was a murderer beset by jealousy or greed? Was a man's violent behavior predictable from his surroundings or experiences? If such influences were taken into account, perhaps a more meaningful program of rehabilitation could be created instead of the strictly punitive institutions we have today, where prisoners grow old while pacing off a useless life until they die in a cement cell. Don't get me wrong, I believe that many criminals are not fit for society and need to be locked away. But that's all the more reason why we need excellent rehabilitation facilities to reeducate those are fit for society and keep the others forever sequestered where they can do no harm.

Our penal system reflects our need to construct stories that explain tragedy, even when tragedy is ultimately pointless. These "central narratives" form the comforting and profoundly meaningful basis of our worldviews. One of the most common central narratives of modern-day America involves sin and its relation to blame. Our fascination with blame feeds our passion for punishment. People are told as children that punishment is the consequence of choosing to do the wrong thing--an outgrowth of our unsubstantiated belief in free will. Because of the power of this message, we obsess over punishment. Our news stories, movies, and television shows all subscribe to the same central narrative and feature people who outrage society by their hideous acts of sin. Pick a story at random from your favorite newspaper, movie, or book, and punishment and sin are likely to be threaded throughout its fabric. .......
 
cornfedhick said:
Many would argue that this diversity is actually what makes America GREAT -- not a "mess."  I happen to agree. 
Click to expand...

If it was a happy go-lucky utopia... yes, I agree. But it isn't and prejudice and racism exist, so this supposed "GREATNESS" is a big fat mess.
 
I thought it was related to free will, freedom, you know the words which many Americans rave about.
Especially nowadays with that damned Tea Party.

And even not related, I thought it can be very thought provoking. Sorry if the timing was bad.
 
Yeah, but this religious thing can apply pretty much everywhere... Yes, it is provoking. I've heard that US has the biggest percentage of prisoners. It could be a start to lead there, maybe.
 
The war on drugs, which in many cases is just stupid IMO, really boosts the number of prisoners, part of the whole "protect the children"/"do it for the children" line of thought in this country .. do not get me wrong, I have 2 kids and as a parent want them safe, but equating smoking pot with shooting heroin is just stupid.

There is a Libertarian streak in the Tea Party, which is a well founded sentiment  in US history and I think a belief that individuals can do many things better than a government.  Especially over such a large and diverse country.
 
Forostar said:
The American Dream eh? Free will eh?

I will put some more fire in this discussion, and I'll quote a certain man, called Greg Graffin, an American:

....... In Western religions, the central metaphor for tragedy is sin. Humans are different from their Creator because God is perfect and we are not. God, however, gave us "free will" because we are his favorite creation. Humans must exert their free will to do good, despite being inherently sinful, in order to gain entry into heaven and live an eternal afterlife in paradise. Sin then becomes the justification for blame and punishment. You deserve to be punished if you don't exercise your free will to overcome your inherently sinful nature.

When tragedies befall others, we tend to look for the ways in which these others sinned instead of recognizing and considering the long chain of events that led up to the event in question. Was a robber desperate to feed a family? Was a murderer beset by jealousy or greed? Was a man's violent behavior predictable from his surroundings or experiences? If such influences were taken into account, perhaps a more meaningful program of rehabilitation could be created instead of the strictly punitive institutions we have today, where prisoners grow old while pacing off a useless life until they die in a cement cell. Don't get me wrong, I believe that many criminals are not fit for society and need to be locked away. But that's all the more reason why we need excellent rehabilitation facilities to reeducate those are fit for society and keep the others forever sequestered where they can do no harm.

Our penal system reflects our need to construct stories that explain tragedy, even when tragedy is ultimately pointless. These "central narratives" form the comforting and profoundly meaningful basis of our worldviews. One of the most common central narratives of modern-day America involves sin and its relation to blame. Our fascination with blame feeds our passion for punishment. People are told as children that punishment is the consequence of choosing to do the wrong thing--an outgrowth of our unsubstantiated belief in free will. Because of the power of this message, we obsess over punishment. Our news stories, movies, and television shows all subscribe to the same central narrative and feature people who outrage society by their hideous acts of sin. Pick a story at random from your favorite newspaper, movie, or book, and punishment and sin are likely to be threaded throughout its fabric. .......
Click to expand...

I guess I'm confused, Foro.  You say "Free will, eh?" as if this article proves that there is none?  I am not sure if that is what you mean or not.  Sure there is free will.  You can follow the rules of society or you can break them.  I don't see what is wrong about punishment-- that isn't different anywhere.  We may have a different penal system than other parts of the world, but I don't see how that changes 'free will'.

Maybe you can explain your comment?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top