Magnus
Pica Serdica
And everywhere else, I'm afraid.Unpleasant surprises like voting for fascists in the US?
USA Politics
- Thread starter Genghis Khan
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Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
And you think leftism is to blame for the global rise of fascism? Or did I misunderstand your previous post?
____no5
Free Man
Except that I replied after I said the above. Unlike you.
So I presume you are just parroting. I didn't expect that or I wouldn't have bothered to ask. No worries, next time I won't.
Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
Go on then, which important or relevant politicians that are currently globally active are leftist? This will be fun.
I literally gave you 4 sources you can look into at your own leisure and 2 examples. And it's precious that you of all people accuse people of "parroting". Educate yourself instead of these bullshit games.
Diesel 11
As you scream into the web of silence...
I think you're misinterpreting what Magnus is saying. Now I don't want to speak for Magnus per se (and keep in mind that I am with you 99% of the time in this thread), but what I don't think he's saying is "leftists are the reason people are turning to fascism". I think what he means is that "people who call themselves leftists give off the impression that they are better than people who are not leftists and talk down to them, which pushes those people away from their cause and towards hungry fascists ready to swallow them up into their political movement."
I think in a broad sense this is true. I was listening to a podcast today that made the case that the Democrats are seen as the party of elites (no matter how backwards that may be given the Republican nominee who won is a literal billionaire), and this has continually made them lose ground with rural voters (which is not the whole of why the Dems lost the election but certainly does not help them year after year). Certainly the "Twitter leftists" do not leave centrists and right-wingers with a positive taste in their mouths, although I would argue that this has more to do with the fact that the right has taken control of the narrative on "cancel culture" and spun it for use towards their own agendas. But that narrative is out there and it's up to us to change that.
I think Magnus is saying that the way you post gives the impression of a hound dog who knows better than everyone else and chases after people for having opinions different to yours. I'm not saying I necessarily agree - I think you do a really good job of combating the batshit stuff posted in this thread in general - however I can understand that some of the things you say in your posts can come across to those not already on the left as being 'holier than thou'. I also can't really see myself doing any better though. The political landscape is fucking frustrating and I hate that people's rights are on the ballet every single year and that does not lead me to make good judgement calls on my own part. It's maddening.
But saying stuff like "this will be fun" definitely makes it feel like you're ready to bite at any chance you get when I don't think Magnus came for you with nearly the same tone. Magnus can be a jokester from time to time but I think his comments are serious concerns that we on the left need to start taking to heart in order to sway people's minds, as difficult as that truly is.
Jer
A window to the west, a blazing star above
I would agree. I find Vaenyr’s approach to be completely insufferable even when I’m on the same page with his core opinion.
Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
First of all, thank you for the thorough response. I appreciate it. I actually agree with quite a few of the raised points and will detail any points of disagreement further down.
Maybe it's a difference in how the word "leftist" is used, but that's one of those words, just like communist or socialist, that are thrown around without care even when they don't apply. Not everyone on the left is a leftist; the latter requires socialist and anti-capitalist beliefs. So, while I understand that the Dems are seen as the party of the elites (and as you said, that's quite the hypocritical assessment nowadays), the Dems don't have any leftists among their rangs. There's a reason why they are seen as a center right party globally, despite being attacked as "radical far left communists" by the MAGA movement. I obviously won't defend the "Twitter leftists", which are a special kind of unhinged (enter Jer's "that's you Vaenyr" jabs and jokes
). Furthermore, I would argue given the small amount of leftists both in the US and globally, that I don't think they meaningfully affect the numbers. It's a tiny minority compared to conservatives, moderates and liberals. As we've seen with this election, the majority of people voted with the economy in mind. I'm sure there are examples of people being pushed to the right by folks on the left, but I can't imagine this is a meaningful number overall. Contrarians exists, but most people don't choose their political affiliation to spite groups they find annoying. That's my perception at least.As for smugness, I would argue that this isn't unique to any political affiliation. Yes, leftists can be overly smug and annoying. So can liberals. But as we've seen in the last week with how sore winners the right wing is, so can conservatives and moderates as well. Not to mention centrists who bash in both directions (though interestingly enough in many cases they mostly attack the left).
(Edit: Forgot to add, in my opinion there's a bit of double standards at play. Most people will happily shit on far right loonies; same with left wing loonies. The far left is characterized as attacking everyone right, while the right wing and center keep attacking the far left as well. I get the mud slinging, but this perception of the left being responsible is misguided in my opinion. A common argument, also seen in this thread at times, it's that it is "common sense" to be against the far right and the far left. While that can be arguable, I see constant hostility and attacks on the left from the center and the right, yet mostly the left is held accountable and called out.
To summarize, in my experience different groups are held to different standards and the criticisms aren't dished out in equal measure.)
I can understand the impression, but I don't really care if people have the same opinion with me or not - otherwise Virtual XI wouldn't be my favorite Maiden album
Jokes aside, opinions are subjective, while the things I mostly take issue with in this thread are either obvious falsehoods presented as facts or glaring hypocrisy after being told and shown the opposite and yet still doubling down. @Detective Beauregard was going on a weird rant about how Pride month unnecessary and "insane" and why there isn't a Veteran's month, when in reality the latter exists. I, as a foreigner (and other users of course too), had to explain to an American citizen things about his country that he should know better if he has such a strong opinion on the matter. How are you supposed to talk about that stuff and correct obviously wrong information without sounding as if you're talking down? Or how we were talking about the Harris and Biden campaigns, how the former is objectively more right-wing than the latter's in many instances (constantly promising positions to Republicans, bragging about the most lethal army, parading the Cheneys around, constantly trying to appeal to moderates), how it did not focus on identity politics even though Biden's did, yet we have @Jer ranting and bashing the trans community, who felt it was so important to take the opportunity to "bite at the chance" to go after me (to steal your wording) that he completely ignored the actual subject and context we were talking about to raise irrelevant grievances. Such unwarranted attacks, based on a faulty premise, which attack a marginalized community I care about need to be called out, in my opinion. Maybe it's insufferable, but so is transphobia.As for me in particular, I am aware of my flaws. I can be a difficult person to deal with. I can be petty and vindictive. I am definitely stubborn. I am sure many users here roll with their eyes the moment they see that I wrote another lengthy post in the thread. At the end of the day I am who I am though. People are free to put me on ignore if they think I don't contribute anything to the thread. They can scroll on by, or they can call me out if they want. As I mentioned before, if we're talking about objective statements I will stand my ground when those are falsified. I get that my positions and the way I express them can be polarizing and I am trying to reign in my worst impulses. For many that's not nearly enough and that's a valid stance as well. You can't please everyone and if I come across as a "holier than thou" obnoxious and insufferable leftist, then so be it.
Then I must've misjudged and misread his tone. I'm not as familiar with him as other members here, since we haven't interacted that much so far. Maybe the "#IgnoranceIsNoExcuse" joke and a couple of posts flew over my head , maybe I saw hostility where there was none. Maybe I interpreted obvious jokes as "poking the bear". If I misjudged your tone and position @Magnus, then I sincerely apologize. I'll cut out the snark.
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Azas
Muted
One can label me 'meme man' as much as they want but this image certainly rings a bell. I formed my own opinion on the issue by myself, not by looking at this picture. And I am by no means pro Trump.
Also current situation in USA and Europe regarding leaders is very bad. Latest call of Scholz to Putin is despicable. Scholz is trying to remain above water but at what cost... Even Biden is not 'true' leader. If Democrats will continue in this direction they will not win any foreseeable elections. Of course, Trump must not fuck up so bad that people will abandon him.
Biden administration wanted to avoid escalation but escalation is going on (North Korea joining the war and now I've seen reports that China have sent weapons to russia for the first time). Escalation is only deterred by strong stance not by half measures.
Also current situation in USA and Europe regarding leaders is very bad. Latest call of Scholz to Putin is despicable. Scholz is trying to remain above water but at what cost... Even Biden is not 'true' leader. If Democrats will continue in this direction they will not win any foreseeable elections. Of course, Trump must not fuck up so bad that people will abandon him.
Biden administration wanted to avoid escalation but escalation is going on (North Korea joining the war and now I've seen reports that China have sent weapons to russia for the first time). Escalation is only deterred by strong stance not by half measures.
Vaenyr
Ancient Mariner
I knew that we'd see this picture sooner or later. I believe it is a massive misrepresentation of social issues. As we've discussed in this thread before, hate crimes against LGBTQ minorities have increased in the last few years. Both times Trump got elected there was a noticeable bump in racist attacks and harassment against Black and Hispanic people. We see more and more literal Neo-Nazi protests and rallies in the United States. These aren't fantasies or delusions; there is plenty of bigotry of all forms out there.
At the same time the right wing has shifted the overton window massively to the right. The image above suggest they stayed the same, which couldn't be further from the truth. Nowadays there are MAGA politicians in the House spreading antisemetic conspiracies. Trump's pick for Defense Secretary has ties with white supremacists. The Republicans of 2008 or 2012 like Mitt Romney are seen as RINOs by many Trump supporters.
In other words: Memes have often no basis in reality and this particular one is a prime example. The left wants equality and people to be able to live their lives in peace; the right is actively taking away people's rights. The sides are not even close to being the same. Furthermore, the majority of Americans are in favor of social safety nets (something the left advocates for), that's important to keep in mind as well.
Yax
Ancient Mariner
In terms of some issues, sure, that is being magnified and used as a lightning rod by the right wing. The liberal wing stands for freedom of choice in different forms and shape, which, in the supposed land of the free, is considered extreme by the right.