USA Politics

What James is talking about is a pretty common sentiment though and I think contributes a lot to why we get so many bad national candidates. American politics often feels like a race to the bottom, and with everything so nationalized I think there is a feeling that the only person who's vote actually matters is some guy in Michigan. Generally in America people tend to be really uninformed and so turned off by the discourse that they disengage entirely. It's very difficult to get people to be politically active in their own community, where their vote does make a difference, even for those who are already more politically engaged than average.
 
Of course it makes some sense on some level, but it is still such an absurd situation to me. We are talking about adult human beings, not kids. Things like January 6 or Trump being a convicted felon are things that were blasted daily in the news. You can't not be aware of these things on some level. To not think about these things at all and to simply vote based on vibes and on hurting people you find annoying? I genuinely don't know what to say, I'm at a loss for words.
 
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Exactly because things are so absurd, that's what worries me about Kamala as candidate. Will most Americans vote for a (black/asian) woman over a white (felon) man ... I'm legitimately concerned.
 
Onhell said:
Exactly because things are so absurd, that's what worries me about Kamala as candidate. Will most Americans vote for a (black/asian) woman over a white (felon) man ... I'm legitimately concerned.
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Most voters will, the question is whether turnout is strong enough in the rust belt states. It’s still the same country that elected Barack Hussein Obama in a landslide. I’m sure she will face a lot of hurdles that a white guy wouldn’t, but I also think the Democrats are in this kind of self perpetuating thing where they don’t believe that a candidate other than a white guy can win because the one time they ran a woman they lost to Trump. But I think it’s worth keeping in mind that 2016 was Clinton’s race to lose, and ultimately she lost because people didn’t trust her and thought she was a criminal (take notes, Trump). Without the Comey letter she probably would have won. Furthermore, she would have won had she been nominated in 2008. I truly think that almost any of the 2020 Dem candidates would have beaten Trump and that Biden’s electability argument was fear based and not necessarily backed by evidence, but we may never know. Also, the racist/misogynistic attacks that will come from the GOP are not going to sit well with voters. A lot has changed since 2016 and I also think that sort of thing is just an example of the nastiness that a lot of swing voters are tired of.

I don’t want to get too excited here, but I do think the media isn’t quite catching on to how big a deal this could be. I think Democrats just generated a ton of goodwill by sparing voters of a rematch election that they repeatedly expressed that they did not want. The huge donation numbers and volunteering sign ups suggests that the base has been activated. People don’t want to vote for Trump and they have been given another viable choice. It could be a close race, but I also wouldn’t rule out the return of an Obama-like coalition. I haven’t seen this much excitement from democrats around a nominee since Obama at least.
 
Mosh said:
Also, the racist/misogynistic attacks that will come from the GOP are not going to sit well with voters. A lot has changed since 2016 and I also think that sort of thing is just an example of the nastiness that a lot of swing voters are tired of.
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I've already seen a lot of them on Twitter making remarks about her "blowjob capabilities". It's incredible that this is all they really have right now. I'm trying to be reasonable because I don't want a 2016 repeat but this really is such a huge opportunity now.
 
DJ James said:
I’m not about to say this in a sarcastic way, sometimes over the internet it is difficult to convey emotion, I am genuinely curious about that Manufacturing bit you mentioned from 2008, are there any articles I can read on that from the time? Well they don’t even have to be from the time, anything about CPU manufacturing coming to the US around 2008 I would like to read into.

As for who I’m voting for, well it doesn’t really matter. I will always vote, and I will always vote for who I vote for. Some may respond this and ask what this means, it is meant literally. For years before me people have either voted red or blue, it’s a 50/50 shot either way. I know morally, there’s hangups on both sides. My ideal candidate is not running in this race though.
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How the Stimulus Is Changing America

Voters hate it. Hardly anyone wants credit for it. But President Obama's $787 billion stimulus is quietly altering the way Americans work, move, innovate and plug in
time.com time.com

The 2009 Dems passed the stimulus, which almost certainly saved General Motors and Chrysler from collapse, which would have crushed American manufacturing.
 
Onhell said:
Exactly because things are so absurd, that's what worries me about Kamala as candidate. Will most Americans vote for a (black/asian) woman over a white (felon) man ... I'm legitimately concerned.
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They would vote based on who they think would make a better president and most importantly someone from whom they, the voters, would benefit the most.
Asian, black, felon. It doesn’t matter if the candidates shows voters there’s something in there for them.
 
Diesel 11 said:
I've already seen a lot of them on Twitter making remarks about her "blowjob capabilities". It's incredible that this is all they really have right now. I'm trying to be reasonable because I don't want a 2016 repeat but this really is such a huge opportunity now.
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They really miss Nancy Reagan, huh.
 
Diesel 11 said:
I've already seen a lot of them on Twitter making remarks about her "blowjob capabilities". It's incredible that this is all they really have right now. I'm trying to be reasonable because I don't want a 2016 repeat but this really is such a huge opportunity now.
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Oh, racism and more misogyny is coming.
 
While I disagree with James, as I could never vote for Trump (or really vote for someone whose politics I'm not bothered to discern), I agree with this.
DJ James said:
I’m a pretty firm believer there’s only being two types of people that talk about politics in moderated forums, those on the left, and those that don’t talk about politics.
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I don't like the labels left and right, honestly, but let's reformulate it as those on the (allegedly) progressive side of things and those that don't talk about politics. Or at least, seriously censor themselves.

Jer said:
The thing that I don’t understand is how someone could get past Trump’s attempt to steal the election, capped by inciting a physical attack on another branch of government. If that’s not completely disqualifying, what would be?
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I could never vote for Trump, nor current day Reps, but on days when I wake up wrong and feel like shit, like today, I get a weird satisfaction from the competition being so close, up to the level I wish Trump would win. Cause the US deserves him. If the only alternative is the sanctimonious "we're the only moral people in the entire human history", if the main selling point is supposed to be the support for freely offing one's offspring (which absolutely belies that previous implied tenet), then it's the tail end of civilisation anyway. And I want to wistfully watch the wind singing among the ruins.


(not really, I guess, I'm still for the unity of means, consequences and goals ... besides I'm still too big of a softie to get any real satisfaction from that, since the US crumbling down would only help those even worse, like Russia or China... but it's hard to fight off these feelings sometimes, especially browsing the internet)

(also, I have yet to see a progleft person reflecting upon the rise of far-right and fascism in the US or Europe in that they are also somewhat to blame, pushing things too far and dismissing legitimate concerns or values of even normal, centre people in the long run - so it all would be moot anyway, they will still keep blaming Trump or that all people - who vote differently - are inherently evil or something.
There's always a bit of truth in that Chesterton quote "'What is wrong with the world today?' Dear Sir, I am...", but I digress)


Sorry, like I said, I'm getting more melancholic and depressed lately, although the bile has left me since I've stopped visiting Twitter. I've been avoiding politics as much as possible, lately, then I thought "hey, why wouldn't I start checking it again also via this forum", but we're getting both to James' statement and the fact the situation is too depressing overall.

Mosh said:
Generally in America people tend to be really uninformed and so turned off by the discourse that they disengage entirely.
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Not just in America. Like, I know the basic people and parties and basic tenets, enough to know whom to vote for, but concerning myself with politics too much has been genuinely hurtful for my soul. My wife literally refuses to know anything about politics, merely asks me who to vote for each time around.

Sorry for any potential offence, I'll keep babbling about music and other forms of art instead. Even as the politics that doesn't directly affect me (in fact, the most tangible issue here would be the support/or not of Ukraine), it's still too spirit-crushing, because I can't help but feel like it's the vanguard for the West... and the future looks bleak.
 
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I'll be honest, reading all that I have a bunch of thoughts, some more snarky than others, but I'll keep them to myself. Wouldn't be constructive to share them.

I will touch upon the "only two types of people who talk politics" point though. It sounds cute when you don't think about it, but it is demonstrably false. There are large online spaces (4chan, Kiwifarms, large parts of modern Twitter, certain subs on Reddit, and so on) that are dedicated to political discussion and planning by alt right and/or far right folks and general conservatives, which are notorious for not being moderated. This notion that only the left cares to talk about politics, while "normal people" don't, which in turn implies that progressives are somehow weird and abnormal, is a popular talking point from the right wing, but as usual doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

It's kinda funny that the left wing has this stereotype of being judgmental and "sanctimonious", while any criticism and judging of said left wing apparently is okay. Totally not hypocritical lol
 
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Vaenyr said:
I'll be honest, reading all that I have a bunch of thoughts, some more snarky than others, but I'll keep them to myself. Wouldn't be constructive to share them.

I will touch upon the "only two types of people who talk politics" point though. It sounds cute when you don't think about it, but it is demonstrably false. There are large online spaces (4chan, Kiwifarms, large parts of modern Twitter, certain subs on Reddit, and so on) that are dedicated to political discussion and planning by alt right and/or far right folks and general conservatives and which are notorious for not being moderated. This notion that only the left cares to talk about politics, while "normal people" don't, which in turn implies that progressives are somehow weird and abnormal, is a popular talking point from the right wing, but as usual doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

It's kinda funny that the left wing has this stereotype of being judgmental and "sanctimonious", while any criticism and judging of said left wing apparently is okay. Totally not hypocritical lol
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Just two points to clarify, since I've forgotten to unwatch the thread:

1. Like I said, I'm neither right or left wing. I hate both with a passion. (and no, I'm not a libertarian either)
2. I was talking more about the mainstream fora which I visit (I don't really care what Trumpets vomit out or where), including this one, which is very much bent in a certain way, which includes, yes, condemnation and appalment. You know, moral superiority. I would rather if none of the "wings" used that rhetoric, because neither is quite moral or really strives for it - it really strives only for its "wingness"* (for what it's worth, I find @Mosh 's rhetoric very appropriate in that regard, I always love reading his post on anything).

Anyway, thank you for not elaborating further, like I said, the politics thread are probably not really a place for me.

Peace and love, Judas out.


* - if you wished to know what I mean by that, read The Righteous Mind by Haidt - a book by a secular, prog-left leaning evolutionary psychologist (so no right-wing echo chamber or no crony of mine), who is talking precisely about the political divide and who is IMHO absolutely right about most things.
 
I'll never get over the fact that only progressives are being criticized for "condemnation and appalment" when this applies to the entire political spectrum. The left attacks the right, the right attacks the left, and the center attacks the extremes. Claiming otherwise is just blatant partisanship.

Edit: As for Haidt, some of his core ideas are sound, but he consistently misrepresents or vastly misunderstands the topics he's talking about. His claim that we should follow our feelings because reason can't be trusted is utterly absurd. He talks about Plato and Hume, while fundamentally misunderstanding both views. And the conclusion that we should all just talk to each other and that we could fix all problems in such a way is simply naive and not reflected in the real world. Also, listening to him contradict himself multiple times in the span of an hour in a podcast appearance didn't help either. So, not surprising, but I don't hold him in any high regard.
 
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I think there's two things I want to mention. The first is that when presented with a voter who isn't particularly educated, I don't think the right course of action is to be shocked. The news isn't watched by most Americans. Only 15% of Americans watched the debate. Think about that. The disaster that pushed Biden out of the race? 15%. Even if this is a well attended election, 40% of eligible Americans won't bother, despite all the warnings - on both sides - of the ramifications of failure. You just gotta talk on what their concerns are, and talk it through, and see how it goes. People are allowed to make decisions for all the wrong reasons, that's one of the challenges with democracy.

The other thing I think should be said is that @Jer was right to point out Biden's age as a significant danger point for the Dems. The careful protection of Biden during his entire presidency - he has done precious few interviews and press conferences - allowed those attacking his age to define him. The danger for them was setting the bar so low that Biden could likely have leapt over it with a good performance - SOTU Biden, for example. But all it took was one bad night to feed all those fears and turn them into burning fires. He likely should have withdrawn long ago, which a lot of people expected when they voted for him in 2020.
 
LooseCannon said:
I think there's two things I want to mention. The first is that when presented with a voter who isn't particularly educated, I don't think the right course of action is to be shocked. The news isn't watched by most Americans. Only 15% of Americans watched the debate. Think about that. The disaster that pushed Biden out of the race? 15%. Even if this is a well attended election, 40% of eligible Americans won't bother, despite all the warnings - on both sides - of the ramifications of failure. You just gotta talk on what their concerns are, and talk it through, and see how it goes. People are allowed to make decisions for all the wrong reasons, that's one of the challenges with democracy.
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I'm not shocked that someone isn't educated on politics. As I mentioned before, it does make sense in some cases. I also asked specific questions to get a better understanding, but some of those were unfortunately ignored.

My shock, if we want to call it that, is that someone would choose their vote by the candidate "hurting the right people" and that when asked about the proposed policies and the potential danger of them the response is "don't wanna read all that".

For me it's weird to be in 2024, to know that certain choices will actively hurt people I care about and that there are voters, adult human beings, who don't spend a few minutes to inform themselves and in turn end up voting for the harmful choice. Lord knows that @Jer finds me obnoxious and that we'll never agree on a bunch of things, but I can at least trust that he'll always vote according to his principles and according to the things he believes in, not according to who he's going to hurt or upset with his vote.

To summarize, I have no issue with how James portrayed his views or what he's going to vote for. I just wish that when people mention that the Dems align more with the issues he mentioned as priorities or when folks mention the proposed legislation for the next GOP presidency that people would at least look into that for a bit, instead of just ignoring it as "some long republican thing".
 
Vaenyr said:
I'll never get over the fact that only progressives are being criticized for "condemnation and appalment" when this applies to the entire political spectrum. The left attacks the right, the right attacks the left, and the center attacks the extremes. Claiming otherwise is just blatant partisanship.
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I would argue that the progressive left also attacks the center, even the significantly left-of-center, on a regular basis in a way that the reactionary right doesn’t do as much to their moderates. (Yes, Trump has created appalling litmus tests for people who want to run for office as a Republican, but aside from office holders who aren’t falling in line, the right generally doesn’t attack the center in the U.S.)

Perhaps this is the key difference re: the center, that progressive voters attack centrist voters, while reactionary politicians generally just attack centrist politicians. This contributes to the prog-left’s bad reputation for condescension and posturing, since they go out of their way to alienate people who would otherwise be their allies on many issues, at least to a certain point. And the regular occurrence of leftists turning off their ears and exiting conversations as soon as the other person shows they’re not fully on board with their dogma is, yes, incredibly obnoxious.
 
LooseCannon said:

How the Stimulus Is Changing America

Voters hate it. Hardly anyone wants credit for it. But President Obama's $787 billion stimulus is quietly altering the way Americans work, move, innovate and plug in
time.com time.com

The 2009 Dems passed the stimulus, which almost certainly saved General Motors and Chrysler from collapse, which would have crushed American manufacturing.
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Thanks! I will read over this, I’m still upset GM pulled a lot of Manufacturing out of the US in 2018 (yet here I am still driving a Chevy…)

My non-response to a long of things in is by design. I could get pulled into this forever back and forth over politics, and that would take up a lot of my time. Time which I would rather spend with my family, or doing creative things that I love like sewing or journaling. I think you’re all correct though, being informed is good. Especially about politics. Someone asked earlier about who it was I’d like to annoy - it’s mostly people I see that spend too much time on twitter. I’m open to reading about how Democrats will bring more manufacturing to the US, and also any policy changes that will help conserve the natural beauty of the US, but I don’t plan on participating in this thread much. I actually regret voicing my opinion earlier, I don’t like to talk about this stuff in length.

Wish I could summarize it better. I’m much more than a Centrist, like I said maybe if there was a Green or Environmentalist Party I could subscribe to that. But I am certainty not a Conservative or a Republican. In fact I disagree heavily with the Republican Party on the biggest points. But like I said before, I don’t like talking about this stuff too much.
 
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