USA Politics

[Jer]

I think you’re right, the Republicans have a huge blind spot on this and it likely increases Trump’s chances of getting nominated, but the details of the indictment are so damning that this should basically destroy Trump’s chances of winning over independents and swing voters in the general election.

Unfortunately, if things play out that way, Trump and Fox News will try to spin it as Biden successfully weaponizing the Justice department to take out a political rival and rig the outcome (which is of course a joke, given the involvement of a special counsel and a grand jury in the process), and his supporters will buy it hook, line, and sinker. Who knows what that will mean on certification day in 2025, but by then hopefully all of the major Jan 6 instigators will still be in prison.

 

[____no5]

Yeah. Unfortunately, even if he’s convicted, the next Republican elected president will probably pardon him, if Trump is still alive at that point.

You are missing the point. Biden using lawfare to knock his opponent out for something himself too has committed is banana republic territory.
Yes Trump committed a cardinal sin on 06 January 2021. But what Biden just did is right out from the same playbook to undermine a formidable democracy.

US citizens should be alert on authoritarian actions and not let partisanship cloud their judgement. Yes Republicans started the "war" during Obama presidency but Democrats falling for similar dirty tricks is deeply damaging.

Take a look below, both is shameful staff yet it's happening for real.


*Geraldo Rivera is a Republican.

 

[Diesel 11]

Oh my fucking god.

 

[Jer]

You are missing the point. Biden using lawfare to knock his opponent out for something himself too has committed is banana republic territory.
Yes Trump committed a cardinal sin on 06 January 2021. But what Biden just did is right out from the same playbook to undermine a formidable democracy.

Since you live in a country where this sort of behavior is commonplace, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’re just horribly naive about how the U.S. functions.

You see, in a free country we have multiple layers of protection against this kind of bullshit that you and Trump are alleging. First of all, a special counsel was put in place to lead the investigation, and he exists outside any hierarchy Biden would have any executive control over. This special counsel had to present evidence to a grand jury in Florida, consisting of somewhere between 15-21 of Trump’s neighbors selected at random, and a majority of that grand jury had to vote that based on the evidence presented it was more likely than not that Trump was guilty — and only then could the special counsel move forward with the indictment.

Also, since this is a free country, the indictment itself is part of the public record and anyone can read it. Based on your comments it’s pretty obvious that you haven’t. Here’s a link, if the Great Firewall will let you through: https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/23839647/govuscourtsflsd64865330.pdf

Key differences with Trump’s behavior include refusing to return documents after the National Archives repeatedly contacted him and requested their return, intentionally showing top secret documents to people without clearance, demonstrating his understanding that the documents weren’t declassified before he removed them, and trying to direct his lawyers to break the law by lying about the presence of the requested documents. If Trump had just returned all the documents requested by the National Archives in the first place, this likely never would have happened. It was the National Archives that referred the matter to the FBI.

This is terrible advice, and would actually represent using the indictment as leverage to force a political outcome, which is the exact thing you’re railing against.

Biden is doing what he’s supposed to here — staying the hell out of the way while the FBI and DOJ function independently, exactly as they’re intended to.

Imagine that, Fox News running a saucy, biased chyron. I’m just so shocked.

 

[chaosapiant]

You are missing the point. Biden using lawfare to knock his opponent out for something himself too has committed is banana republic territory.
Yes Trump committed a cardinal sin on 06 January 2021. But what Biden just did is right out from the same playbook to undermine a formidable democracy.

Jesus Christ this is a bad take.

 

[____no5]

Since you live in a country where this sort of behavior is commonplace

if the Great Firewall will let you through: https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/23839647/govuscourtsflsd64865330.pdf

No need to get heated and no need to get personal. Why where I am living is even a thing? Anyway do as you like but it’s not nice.

This is terrible advice, and would actually represent using the indictment as leverage to force a political outcome, which is the exact thing you’re railing against.

Yes it is, it’s worthy of vomiting. I googled this person and he is Republican. Which makes it even worse. It feels like a system of people, no matter party, are desperately trying to put him out of the way.

Imagine that, Fox News running a saucy, biased chyron. I’m just so shocked.

Sure, it’s shocking. Despicable thing to do. On the other hand it shows how 30 -35% of the American people feel about it and no matter how you are trying to paint it, Biden did it, Hilary did it, Pence, Bush, Obama, but only Trump got indicted.

If Trump had just returned all the documents requested by the National Archives in the first place, this likely never would have happened. It was the National Archives that referred the matter to the FBI.

I must admit that I didn’t know this detail. Why Trump didn’t want to return the documents?

 

[Diesel 11]

I must admit that I didn’t know this detail. Why Trump didn’t want to return the documents?

Because he’s fucking stupid.

 

[Jer]

Why where I am living is even a thing?

Because it appears to deeply color your world view to the point where you assume that just because corruption is commonplace where you are, it must be similarly commonplace elsewhere.

The U.S. government is designed from the ground up to resist corruption. It certainly can’t stamp it out completely, and there are some edge cases that can be easier for bad actors to exploit; but for the most part the checks and balances are very real and tend to do their jobs, even if the gears turn slowly at times. The guard rails held when a corrupt lunatic became President of the United States, and it looks likely that for the first time in our history we’ll be able to finally live up to the ideal that no one is above the law, not even a former president. (At least until some other Republican becomes President and pardons him, as I said before.)

Sure, it’s shocking. Despicable thing to do. On the other hand it shows how 30 -35% of the American people feel about it

I was being facetious. Fox News is a right-wing propaganda machine, and I don’t expect anything but extremist pro-Republican noise to come from them. Is it appalling? Of course, like most of their programming. Is it surprising? Not at all.

and no matter how you are trying to paint it, Biden did it, Hilary did it, Pence, Bush, Obama, but only Trump got indicted.

…and here you go again, ignoring what was said and just returning to your talking points.

Read the actual indictment and try to say this again with a straight face.

I must admit that I didn’t know this detail.

You seem to be ignorant of most of the details of this, yet that doesn’t seem to dampen your fervor for voicing an unsupportable opinion about it as long as it fits your narrative of the U.S. being corrupt and bad. (Again pointing out the relevance of where you live.)

Please, by all means, explain how Biden masterminded this and rammed it through. This would require corrupting 1) The National Archives, a very mild-mannered non-partisan government entity, 2) FBI Director Christopher Wray, a Trump appointee, 3) The Florida federal magistrate judge who approved the search warrant for Trump’s estate based on the evidence presented by the FBI, who is a judge selected by a non-partisan group of local court officials, 4) Attorney General Merrick Garland, who was a noncontroversial district court judge lauded by both Democrats and Republicans until McConnell decided to block his Supreme Court nomination and wait out Obama’s second term, 5) The 15-21 person grand jury of Trump’s randomly-selected peers, a majority of whom approved the indictment, and 6) Judge Aileen Cannon, another Trump appointee, who is the judge overseeing the actual trial of Trump on these charges.

No, really, put it all together. For the sake of argument we can even assume Garland is corrupt because Biden appointed him (even though he’s almost certainly not) — but please connect the dots on the rest and make it all make sense. I’m eager to hear your sterling reasoning on the matter.

 

[____no5]

You seem to be ignorant of most of the details of this, yet that doesn’t seem to dampen your fervor for voicing an unsupportable opinion about it as long as it fits your narrative of the U.S. being corrupt and bad. (Again pointing out the relevance of where you live.)

You are wrong, my opinion for US institutions is very positive.

Well, US due to democracy, formidable military power and strong institutions have an elegance in their acts that rest of big powers will never have in the foreseeable future.

There’s much to admire inside US, the problem is when they’re meddling to World’s affairs. But this thread is mostly for internal US politics.

Please, by all means, explain how Biden masterminded this and rammed it through. This would require corrupting 1) The National Archives, a very mild-mannered non-partisan government entity, 2) FBI Director Christopher Wray, a Trump appointee, 3) The Florida federal magistrate judge who approved the search warrant for Trump’s estate based on the evidence presented by the FBI, who is a judge selected by a non-partisan group of local court officials, 4) Attorney General Merrick Garland, who was a noncontroversial district court judge lauded by both Democrats and Republicans until McConnell decided to block his Supreme Court nomination and wait out Obama’s second term, 5) The 15-21 person grand jury of Trump’s randomly-selected peers, a majority of whom approved the indictment, and 6) Judge Aileen Cannon, another Trump appointee, who is the judge overseeing the actual trial of Trump on these charges.

No, really, put it all together. For the sake of argument we can even assume Garland is corrupt because Biden appointed him (even though he’s almost certainly not) — but please connect the dots on the rest and make it all make sense.

I don’t think Biden masterminded it. As shown above a big part of the political system including Republicans tries hard to kick out Trump by all means.
You demonstrated that Trump was dumb with how he handled the case and I’ll give you that. You also provided some insights that I’ll look more carefully upon with time.

Would anything of this would happen if Trump wasn’t running for President?

 

[chaosapiant]

Would anything of this would happen if Trump wasn’t running for President?

Are you asking if Trump would still be indicted if he wasn’t running? Absolutely. He’s burned nearly every single bridge and friend he’s had. He rallied a God’s honest insurrection on the Capitol lawn. He’s a sexual predator. It’s not a “Democrat” thing to say he’s one of the most vile men to ever walk the earth, it’s a human thing.

 

[____no5]

He rallied a God’s honest insurrection on the Capitol lawn.

That I agree. The only most grave reason and he should be indicted immediately and go down very hard. But trying to get him for sexual cases or now this thing, seem like cheap alternatives.

 

[Perun]

I'm sure the women who were the victims of his sexual assaults would appreciate hearing this.

 

[chaosapiant]

Him being indicted for the many vile crimes he’s committed isn’t an “alternative.” It’s simply his actions finally having consequences. And there’s a LOT of consequences to be had.

 

[____no5]

It makes no sense to me he got away with Capitol and they are chasing him for something everybody else has committed. He's been dumb not returning the documents and the other technicalities Jer demonstrated, but still.

Just punish him for the Capitol plain and clear to settle this and avoid someone smarter to use this playbook in the future. Why is so difficult? Indite him for the documents and a vicious circle will start with each alternation of power between Republicans and Democrats.

I'm sure the women who were the victims of his sexual assaults would appreciate hearing this.

Ok you're right, I corrected my post.

 

[Jer]

You are wrong, my opinion for US institutions is very positive.

You have a very interesting way of showing it.

There’s much to admire inside US, the problem is when they’re meddling to World’s affairs.

Yes, like that time we absolutely blew up the NordStream 2 because some random YouTuber recorded his first video in 9 years to say so, and you believed him. Got it.

I don’t think Biden masterminded it.

You claimed he used “lawfare to knock his opponent out“, which put the U.S. into “banana republic territory”. That suggests that Biden put his thumb on the scale to produce this outcome. Either explain your reasoning or retract your comment.

As shown above a big part of the political system including Republicans tries hard to kick out Trump by all means.

As shown by what above? For someone who claims to have a very positive view of U.S. institutions, you sure don’t seem to trust them to actually do their jobs. It sounds like you’re suggesting that everyone in the executive and judicial branches involved in the investigation and subsequent indictment was just colluding against Trump. Apparently including at least half of the randomly-selected grand jury members, too. If you’re going to claim something that preposterous, back it up with an actual argument and evidence.

Would anything of this would happen if Trump wasn’t running for President?

Yes, of course it would. Criminal investigations and prosecutions take time. We’re only just now seeing sentences being doled out for low level Jan 6 insurrectionists. Trump himself was just recently told he’s an official target of the ongoing federal Jan 6 investigation. Justice is coming for him, the gears are just turning slowly.

It makes no sense to me he got away with Capitol and they are chasing him for something everybody else has committed.

See above and read the indictment. Pence was cleared. Biden is still being investigated. Trump did many things that were far above and beyond accidentally transferring classified documents to the wrong place, so stop drawing false equivalences.

Just punish him for the Capitol plain and clear to settle this and avoid someone smarter to use this playbook in the future. Why is so difficult?

Because our system is designed to protect the innocent, so the authorities have to go through multiple gates of checks and balances to bring criminal charges in the first place, as I’ve already described.

Also, each case is a separate concern. Women who want to sue him civilly for sexual assault don’t get to be overridden by state or federal prosecutors who are suing him criminally for other offenses, or vice versa. Every complaint gets its due process.

 

[____no5]

You claimed he used “lawfare to knock his opponent out“, which put the U.S. into “banana republic territory”. That suggests that Biden put his thumb on the scale to produce this outcome. Either explain your reasoning or retract your comment.

I may do. This whole discussion made me remember the events around 6th January and the frustration that caused me back then.
I need some time to check better some facts for current case. Some of what you pointed out, but also some others such as indictment coinciding with Biden's alleged bribing coming to surface.

In the meantime, let's say that I'm aligning with Alan Dershowitz concerns. That this indictment is very dangerous as if it fails to meet Nixon standards it may turn America into a banana republic. He didn't use these exact words but that was the meaning.
Dershowitz is someone who knows US law very well and Democrat. Note how he's worrying about what's happening. "First time ever that a leading candidate to unseat the current President has been indicted by the current President's administration."
This will go down to history books. So better the case be strong. Independency of justice is not absolute in any country. Whoever is in power pulls the strings. No one will be surprised if nothing happens to Hunter Biden during his father is in power.

In any case, as said above, I will look more carefully into the facts and in due time consider to retract my comment.

 

[Jer]

In the meantime, let's say that I'm aligning with Alan Dershowitz concerns. That this indictment is very dangerous as if it fails to meet Nixon standards it may turn America into a banana republic. He didn't use these exact words but that was the meaning.

And in the video you embedded he goes on to say that after reading the indictment it's noticeably stronger than he expected it to be, and that the audio recording of Trump talking about and most likely showing top secret invasion plans to Mark Meadows' biographer is probably strong enough evidence to survive any appeals.

Remember that Republicans kept defending Nixon all the way up to the point when smoking gun audio tapes came to light, and that was in pre-Big-Lie America. Now there's a solid 30%+ of Republicans who will believe whatever Trump and Fox News tell them, even if contradictory evidence is staring them in the face. This case could be a 100% slam dunk and there will still be people claiming it was rigged, that the audio tapes were AI deepfakes, that the Trump appointees involved in the process were just false flag Antifa plants, etc. It's become a religion to these people. But if we allowed that to interfere with the course of justice just because we're concerned they'll have a violent temper tantrum, then we would just be cowards bending to the mob, and that's not what the United States is about.

 

[Flaming Blimp Crash]

...we're looking to Geraldo Rivera for advice? Lord.

 

[____no5]

...we're looking to Geraldo Rivera for advice? Lord.

No that was the point.

Remember that Republicans kept defending Nixon all the way up to the point when smoking gun audio tapes came to light, and that was in pre-Big-Lie America.

At least then, they stood their ground, eventually. Which they didn't do after January 6th, even after everything unfolded before their eyes on live stream.

 

[chaosapiant]

Regarding the January 6th insurrection: for that to actually go to trial still requires a mountain of evidence, both documented and anecdotal, to come through the courts. While everyone saw what happened, it has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Trump knew what he was doing and intended for the riots to occur. And while it's certainly most people's view that that is the case, that is not enough for trial. Trump's lawyers will simply say that "Trump merely wanted to inspire courage and not violence and that the actions of a few misguided patriots do not reflect Trump's intentions."

So while it has certainly taken its time to gather steam, the Jan 6th indictments are coming. But if they go to court too soon and don't have enough evidence, Trump will have caused an insurrection on live TV and gotten away with it.

The court system in the US can be ridiculously slow and litigation of this nature takes a long ass time to gain traction, but it's necessary to make sure that when a case goes to court, it has all the weight behind it that it needs to prove a crime was committed.