I'm sure many of you will be watching the election with friends/family, but I will be watching at home alone and will likely be hosting a virtual watch with some peeps from work and stuff. If anyone's interested, lemme know.
USA Politics
- Thread starter Genghis Khan
- Start date
Dr. Eddies Wingman
Brighter than thousand_suns
NBC program host to Trump during his town-hall yesterday, on the issue of him retweeting some QAnon madness. "I don’t get that. You’re the president, not someone’s crazy uncle"
Well, I'd say he is someone's crazy uncle. He is definitely someone's uncle, and ... well, you catch my drift.
Well, I'd say he is someone's crazy uncle. He is definitely someone's uncle, and ... well, you catch my drift.
I might take you up on that as I have no one to watch with.
Starting to thoroughly enjoy Brent Terhune's faux MAGA comedy.
JudasMyGuide
The incorrigible papist
[inhales, steps forth, prepared for the rotten tomatos]
Nominating ACB is simply the best and grandest thing that miserable sack has ever done in all of his long, sorry life.
(if the conservative-stacked SCOTUS managed to overturn Roe vs Wade, it'd be the greatest day for the West since time immemorial, but also ACB is great person with a lot of competence and qualities, Scalia's progeny, truly, who's hated pretty much only because of politics)
I'd also like to see him gone, after all,
But then the other one ideologically supports the greatest genocide the humanity has ever known.
Both sexual offenders. Both unpleasant old men. Both parties are inherently evil and toxic in their approach.
I don't trust Trump because his psychosis makes him unpredictable, I don't trust Biden either, because I wouldn't trust a current Democrat (well, or a current Republican, for what it's worth). Is the obvious or the inconspicuous evil the worse one?
America is fucked anyway, but now it's about who brings them to an inevitable destruction faster. Trump would. Let's have this over with. After the fall, the nation will reconstruct itself and lead the world once again. He will Make America Great Again, but only through the ashes, first he must bring it down. God Emperor Leto II Atreides, only unwitting this time.
(you must admit that's not a voice that is heard often enough)
What would you expect from someone who's equally horrified by Fundamentalism and Secularism, Capitalism and Socialism/Communism, by Fascism and Democracy*, by death sentence and abortion/euthanasia, by laissez-faire and affirmative action, by rigid blind traditionalism and postmodernism, by guns for everyone and "marriage" for everyone? Equally horrified by the idea of racism and by the idea that Liberty is the ultimate value, second to none?
And yes, I'm absolutely, completely convinced that any true religion cannot embrace Capitalism, at best accept it as a necessary status quo for now and work day and night at mitigating its worst tendencies and most perverted results.
The current socio-political climate in the US would make me weep tears of blood. I avoid the US politics, 'cause I can't stand it, it crushes me down oh so much.
(* In its worst, unbridled form - I insist that Democracy can be the greatest form of government or at least close to it, but for it to work it must be consistently, perpetually renewed and the people must be constantly re-educated, not only as it pertains to knowledge, but spiritually also (to put it simply, I still lack the proof that democracy actually produces better people/citizens etc. in the long run who would keep it afloat in its good form). That's what makes me at least a bit of a Monarchist - along with the idea that actually swearing your soul in service of your country for life makes you feel responsibility and humility that's hardly ever achieved by a mere representative.)
Sorry for ranting in the wrong thread. I've been posting around the forum only sparsely as of late anyway and I wanted to get this off my chest, sorry.
tHIs FoRuM iS JuSt tOo g****Mn lIBeRal anyway.
Have a nice weekend and I truly wish all you American members nothing but everything good and happiness.
Nominating ACB is simply the best and grandest thing that miserable sack has ever done in all of his long, sorry life.
(if the conservative-stacked SCOTUS managed to overturn Roe vs Wade, it'd be the greatest day for the West since time immemorial, but also ACB is great person with a lot of competence and qualities, Scalia's progeny, truly, who's hated pretty much only because of politics)
I'd also like to see him gone, after all,
He is. Reagan and Thatcher perverted and destroyed the conservatives for the longest time. He's also completely mad and I don't mean it in a good way.
But then the other one ideologically supports the greatest genocide the humanity has ever known.
Both sexual offenders. Both unpleasant old men. Both parties are inherently evil and toxic in their approach.
I don't trust Trump because his psychosis makes him unpredictable, I don't trust Biden either, because I wouldn't trust a current Democrat (well, or a current Republican, for what it's worth). Is the obvious or the inconspicuous evil the worse one?
America is fucked anyway, but now it's about who brings them to an inevitable destruction faster. Trump would. Let's have this over with. After the fall, the nation will reconstruct itself and lead the world once again. He will Make America Great Again, but only through the ashes, first he must bring it down. God Emperor Leto II Atreides, only unwitting this time.
(you must admit that's not a voice that is heard often enough)
What would you expect from someone who's equally horrified by Fundamentalism and Secularism, Capitalism and Socialism/Communism, by Fascism and Democracy*, by death sentence and abortion/euthanasia, by laissez-faire and affirmative action, by rigid blind traditionalism and postmodernism, by guns for everyone and "marriage" for everyone? Equally horrified by the idea of racism and by the idea that Liberty is the ultimate value, second to none?
And yes, I'm absolutely, completely convinced that any true religion cannot embrace Capitalism, at best accept it as a necessary status quo for now and work day and night at mitigating its worst tendencies and most perverted results.
The current socio-political climate in the US would make me weep tears of blood. I avoid the US politics, 'cause I can't stand it, it crushes me down oh so much.
(* In its worst, unbridled form - I insist that Democracy can be the greatest form of government or at least close to it, but for it to work it must be consistently, perpetually renewed and the people must be constantly re-educated, not only as it pertains to knowledge, but spiritually also (to put it simply, I still lack the proof that democracy actually produces better people/citizens etc. in the long run who would keep it afloat in its good form). That's what makes me at least a bit of a Monarchist - along with the idea that actually swearing your soul in service of your country for life makes you feel responsibility and humility that's hardly ever achieved by a mere representative.)
Sorry for ranting in the wrong thread. I've been posting around the forum only sparsely as of late anyway and I wanted to get this off my chest, sorry.
tHIs FoRuM iS JuSt tOo g****Mn lIBeRal anyway.
Have a nice weekend and I truly wish all you American members nothing but everything good and happiness.
Roe V Wade isn’t going to be overturned, and it shouldn’t be because it has been accepted as precedent for decades. If abortions should be made illegal in the states, that should be done via a constitutional amendment. Otherwise it’s legislating from the bench, which conservatives tend to complain about often.
It’s hard to say how ACB will stack up, but I don’t dislike Gorsuch and think he was a good pick all things considered. Under less controversial circumstances and a less controversial president, he would’ve probably received heavy bipartisan support.
It’s hard to say how ACB will stack up, but I don’t dislike Gorsuch and think he was a good pick all things considered. Under less controversial circumstances and a less controversial president, he would’ve probably received heavy bipartisan support.
Diesel 11
As you scream into the web of silence...
Sorry, I’m confused — what genocide is Biden supporting?
Abortion. Some people consider abortion to be genocide. They're wrong, but they consider it so.
There are people who hold that opinion as well, seriously. And they are also wrong. I respect @JudasMyGuide's right to agitate against abortion in a peaceable manner, but I completely disagree with the concept that abortion is wrong. I believe in a woman's right to choose.
And this is nothing against @JudasMyGuide in particular to whom I do not ascribe any level of dishonesty in his beliefs but I would believe anti-abortion activists were really concerned about abortion if they weren't also against comprehensive sex education, use of birth control, and the distribution of the HPV vaccine. In other words, I'd respect anti-abortion activists far more if they were giving out condoms that say "wrap your tool, don't make baby Jesus cry" or something wittier.
Yax
Ancient Mariner
That's the thing though, about a very large chunk of the anti abortion movement. They claim to be "pro-life", but in reality, they are just "anti abortion". Healthcare? Fuck that. Keeping poor people off the streets and avoid starvation? Fuck that. Sex education? Fuck that. Reasonable living conditions? Fuck that.
They just want the right to mandate what people do with their bodies. The concern for life stops there. Yet at the same time, there are a lot of loud voices protesting the concept of masks, arguing how it inflicts on their freedom, seemingly from the same side of the political spectrum. How does that even add up? Freedom to stop an unwanted pregnancy in its earliest phases? No way. Freedom not to wear a mask to help with the reduction of the spread of a mass killing virus and potentially save lives? YES.
Yax
Ancient Mariner
Thanks!
Jer
'Til Tomorrow
I give @JudasMyGuide credit for being consistent about being anti-abortion, anti-euthanasia, and anti-death-sentence, though. All too many conservatives decry abortion but gleefully light up at the prospect of killing criminals, which always seemed incongruous to me.
I also respect conservatives who don’t hide behind rape / incest / life of the mother exceptions. If you’re truly pro-life, then there shouldn’t be loopholes. Of course this exposes the deep problems with holding a truly pro-life view, but at least it’s consistent. I think Alan Keyes was the last major candidate I can remember who actually pulled back the veil and was honest about his point of view on this.
And then of course you have the rabid pro-lifers who are suddenly all for abortion in private as soon as they knock up their mistress or their daughter gets pregnant, but that’s neither here nor there...
I also respect conservatives who don’t hide behind rape / incest / life of the mother exceptions. If you’re truly pro-life, then there shouldn’t be loopholes. Of course this exposes the deep problems with holding a truly pro-life view, but at least it’s consistent. I think Alan Keyes was the last major candidate I can remember who actually pulled back the veil and was honest about his point of view on this.
And then of course you have the rabid pro-lifers who are suddenly all for abortion in private as soon as they knock up their mistress or their daughter gets pregnant, but that’s neither here nor there...
bearfan
Ancient Mariner
I think Gorusch has been pretty good ... and would like to see more in the court generally like him. Semi Libertarian, not from the East Coast/East Coast Law schools.
Going to vote next week .. which I have found in the past generally has little to no wait.
One thing, in Texas, that I hope survives COVID is rolling the non partisan elections in with the partisan elections.
The regular voting schedule is 5x a year in even numbered years (assuming at least one primary/non partisan office goes to a runoff, not counting any special elections). 4 of them being between late March and mid-May) The schedule this year reduced it to 3 (assuming at least one runoff and not counting any special elections)
JudasMyGuide
The incorrigible papist
The fetus has its own DNA, so it's technically not just their bodies...
Anyway, this is neither the time nor the place. Just for the record, I do care about poor people (like I mentioned, it's one of the high religious priorities at that), I do care about sex education (yet not in the way: "hey, here's a condom, now go f*** like bunnies") I do care about reasonable living conditions etc. - BTW I am not especially privileged, particuarly economically speaking, so it's not like I'm living in a friggin castle.
And yes, "freedom to not wear masks" is very idiotic, as is all the covid-cospiracy bullshit etc. However, that's a symptom, I'd guess. Once you stop believing your government or the media (which does not necessarily mean you're a stupid, alt-right hick, I'd say it's one of the legitimate results of postmodernism as a currently prevailing philosophy) you tend to stop discerning as to what to believe and what to not.
(end-line - I still like to think about people on the different side of the opinion spectrum as people. Even a late-term abortion supporter is still human and I hope trying his best to fight for his dubious ideals ("freedom from everything"). Same goes for a Trumper, a Bidener, a Covid-denier, a Holocaust denier, a COINTELPRO denier, Nixon, Reagan, take your pick).
But like I said, not the time, not the place. I only hope that you'll believe me that although I might be anti-abortion, anti-masturbation (for a different, philosophical reasons, not that it's "murder"
), anti-sex ed (at least in the way you'd probably imagine it) etc., still - I'm not a Bible-thumper, I'm not retarded, I'm not a fundamentalist and it all sprouts out of my theology, philosophy, anthropology, experience. Well, not just "mine", the Catholics have 2000 years of that and I'm borrowing a lot, understandably.
And although you (and especially Loosey it seems) have an altogether different outlook on, well, almost everything, including human anthropology, I still insist that given a certain amount of time over a beer I'd be able to explain it all in a way that you would most likely still disagree with, but were possibly able to respect. I believe it and I can only hope you at least admit it as a possibility.
Absolutely, this is completely incomprehensible to me. How one side is all for abortions and all about abolishing the death sentence and it's the opposite for the other one...
This is a misunderstanding of the pro-life position, I'd say. First of all - life of the mother ... that's different, because it profits no-one if both die and if it's the life of the wife instead of the baby... while I do consider it to be a virtue of martyrdom - sacrificing yourself for the baby, I do not think we could rightfully request that of someone else (request to literally die, you might ask that of soldiers and even then only in the most extreme of cases). You need a vocation to be a martyr and that's something the law should not decide (IMHO).
So for example, my wife will soon be finishing her second pregnancy, but were it an ectopic one we would probably 1.) wait if it doesn't fix itself in the early stages - actually happened to a (non-religious) relative, 2.) search for a doctor willing to try a fetal transplant (not an easy thing to do. not a lot of doctors willing to even try that), 3.) let them extract the fetus because it would otherwise kill them both. Still would break our hearts and still we would give him a proper burial.
Funnily enough, one of the many things I discovered I agreed upon with the Church (yes, including abortion, I was against it even as an atheist and well, Chuck Schuldiner also was (at least I interpret the lyrics to Altering the Future in that way)) is the fact that the spouse is more important than the offspring. It is an idea well-versed in tradition, but only rarely met anywhere else outside.
And while I personally think that yes, indeed, abortion is not correct even in these other cases, such as rape/incest (and btw my wife is the same, it's not just that I'm this manly man deciding about women's bodies), I am willing to admit that for example in cases of rape the very pregnancy as a "internal reminder" of sorts of the traumatic experience can be so devastating to a person's psyche that I'd be willing to at least have a discussion on that.
But not when it's merely a matter of convenience.
Also, what scares me (almost) the most is how quickly it became normal. Mainstream. That now me problematizing abortion is in the minority, in the defensive. Because it's expected, normal, natural, it's euphemized into "women's rights", "reproductive rights", "universal health care". That's what makes me feel we're slowly getting completely lost.
There are hypocrites everywhere, we are all human after all.
But yeah, there's very few issues I agree with GOP upon (but those I do I agree with strongly), I actually agree with Democrats on much more stuff (social responsibility and poor people, some sort of gun control, non-discrimination of gay/trans people (doesn't mean marriage, it means they should not lose their jobs or get hated/beaten/killed for it), no death penalty... also, I am strongly, intensely against racism in any shape or form - that's so opposed to any kind of Christian ideal that's absolutely inconceivable to me ("There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" - the whole friggin theology of Paul is about that!). Then again, my attitude towards BLM is very complex (I agree that there was enough of the systemic racism and until they started to do this kind of mess, nobody listened - how long it's been already since Trayvon Martin? Shit, since Emmett Till? On the other hand, I don't find the execution proper - violent revolutions are not my style and I hate the statue defacing and the current wokeness everywhere (like Best Picture for Moonlight and caveats before Gone with the Wind etc)) so I straddle the line on that.
Also - for example when I did the voting calculator it sided me with Trump on the issue of trans people (not) serving in the military. Which I am against not because some sort of discrimination or something, but because the specifics of any army do not seem really hospitable to the presence of actual trans people - maybe I'm wrong about that, but I'd fear it would be an opportunity to some kind of bullying or something. But sure, I'm a bigot 'cause of that. - These issues are complex, that's what I'm trying to say.
But the stuff I disagree I disagree very strongly - I just cannot endorse the abortion candidate. Makes them pretty much as evil as the other party. And unfortunately, their current almost blood-thirstiness in that regard (expelling a guy out of the party 'cause he's pro-life?) do little to endear them to me. Shit, you gave us the better presidents in the 20th century (well, there's still Teddy Roosevelt, whom I like, but whatever).
Anyway, this is neither the time nor the place. Just for the record, I do care about poor people (like I mentioned, it's one of the high religious priorities at that), I do care about sex education (yet not in the way: "hey, here's a condom, now go f*** like bunnies") I do care about reasonable living conditions etc. - BTW I am not especially privileged, particuarly economically speaking, so it's not like I'm living in a friggin castle.
And yes, "freedom to not wear masks" is very idiotic, as is all the covid-cospiracy bullshit etc. However, that's a symptom, I'd guess. Once you stop believing your government or the media (which does not necessarily mean you're a stupid, alt-right hick, I'd say it's one of the legitimate results of postmodernism as a currently prevailing philosophy) you tend to stop discerning as to what to believe and what to not.
(end-line - I still like to think about people on the different side of the opinion spectrum as people. Even a late-term abortion supporter is still human and I hope trying his best to fight for his dubious ideals ("freedom from everything"). Same goes for a Trumper, a Bidener, a Covid-denier, a Holocaust denier, a COINTELPRO denier, Nixon, Reagan, take your pick).
But like I said, not the time, not the place. I only hope that you'll believe me that although I might be anti-abortion, anti-masturbation (for a different, philosophical reasons, not that it's "murder"
), anti-sex ed (at least in the way you'd probably imagine it) etc., still - I'm not a Bible-thumper, I'm not retarded, I'm not a fundamentalist and it all sprouts out of my theology, philosophy, anthropology, experience. Well, not just "mine", the Catholics have 2000 years of that and I'm borrowing a lot, understandably.And although you (and especially Loosey it seems) have an altogether different outlook on, well, almost everything, including human anthropology, I still insist that given a certain amount of time over a beer I'd be able to explain it all in a way that you would most likely still disagree with, but were possibly able to respect. I believe it and I can only hope you at least admit it as a possibility.
Absolutely, this is completely incomprehensible to me. How one side is all for abortions and all about abolishing the death sentence and it's the opposite for the other one...
This is a misunderstanding of the pro-life position, I'd say. First of all - life of the mother ... that's different, because it profits no-one if both die and if it's the life of the wife instead of the baby... while I do consider it to be a virtue of martyrdom - sacrificing yourself for the baby, I do not think we could rightfully request that of someone else (request to literally die, you might ask that of soldiers and even then only in the most extreme of cases). You need a vocation to be a martyr and that's something the law should not decide (IMHO).
So for example, my wife will soon be finishing her second pregnancy, but were it an ectopic one we would probably 1.) wait if it doesn't fix itself in the early stages - actually happened to a (non-religious) relative, 2.) search for a doctor willing to try a fetal transplant (not an easy thing to do. not a lot of doctors willing to even try that), 3.) let them extract the fetus because it would otherwise kill them both. Still would break our hearts and still we would give him a proper burial.
Funnily enough, one of the many things I discovered I agreed upon with the Church (yes, including abortion, I was against it even as an atheist and well, Chuck Schuldiner also was (at least I interpret the lyrics to Altering the Future in that way)) is the fact that the spouse is more important than the offspring. It is an idea well-versed in tradition, but only rarely met anywhere else outside.
And while I personally think that yes, indeed, abortion is not correct even in these other cases, such as rape/incest (and btw my wife is the same, it's not just that I'm this manly man deciding about women's bodies), I am willing to admit that for example in cases of rape the very pregnancy as a "internal reminder" of sorts of the traumatic experience can be so devastating to a person's psyche that I'd be willing to at least have a discussion on that.
But not when it's merely a matter of convenience.
Also, what scares me (almost) the most is how quickly it became normal. Mainstream. That now me problematizing abortion is in the minority, in the defensive. Because it's expected, normal, natural, it's euphemized into "women's rights", "reproductive rights", "universal health care". That's what makes me feel we're slowly getting completely lost.
There are hypocrites everywhere, we are all human after all.
But yeah, there's very few issues I agree with GOP upon (but those I do I agree with strongly), I actually agree with Democrats on much more stuff (social responsibility and poor people, some sort of gun control, non-discrimination of gay/trans people (doesn't mean marriage, it means they should not lose their jobs or get hated/beaten/killed for it), no death penalty... also, I am strongly, intensely against racism in any shape or form - that's so opposed to any kind of Christian ideal that's absolutely inconceivable to me ("There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus" - the whole friggin theology of Paul is about that!). Then again, my attitude towards BLM is very complex (I agree that there was enough of the systemic racism and until they started to do this kind of mess, nobody listened - how long it's been already since Trayvon Martin? Shit, since Emmett Till? On the other hand, I don't find the execution proper - violent revolutions are not my style and I hate the statue defacing and the current wokeness everywhere (like Best Picture for Moonlight and caveats before Gone with the Wind etc)) so I straddle the line on that.
Also - for example when I did the voting calculator it sided me with Trump on the issue of trans people (not) serving in the military. Which I am against not because some sort of discrimination or something, but because the specifics of any army do not seem really hospitable to the presence of actual trans people - maybe I'm wrong about that, but I'd fear it would be an opportunity to some kind of bullying or something. But sure, I'm a bigot 'cause of that. - These issues are complex, that's what I'm trying to say.
But the stuff I disagree I disagree very strongly - I just cannot endorse the abortion candidate. Makes them pretty much as evil as the other party. And unfortunately, their current almost blood-thirstiness in that regard (expelling a guy out of the party 'cause he's pro-life?) do little to endear them to me. Shit, you gave us the better presidents in the 20th century (well, there's still Teddy Roosevelt, whom I like, but whatever).
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I have no doubt your opinion and thoughts are rather consistent, but we disagree on many basic premises. Naturally, I'd hear you out. I'd even buy the beer.
Dr. Eddies Wingman
Brighter than thousand_suns
Could that have been said about the guy Obama nominated in 2016 as well? That if the GOP majority weren't so obsessed with stopping whatever Obama wanted to do, he would've been a pretty uncontroversial pick?
Yax
Ancient Mariner
Yes, Obama actively selected a nominee who could gather bipartisan support.