UK Politics

Which I don't mind if they take the time to educate themselves and act directly in the interests of a broad spectrum of the population. It's when they fall back on assuming the people who matter are from a particular demographic (and surprisingly few of the population fall within that) it's a problem
 
And we say congratulations to the UK for their first Prime Minister that is younger than Iron Maiden - and younger than Iron Maiden's first album
 
Pity he's not in touch with anyone young!

Following on from what @____no5 was discussing in Now Playing....

Yes, social class is still a big deal, even if a lot of people aren't aware and think it doesn't exist. I think it's gradually dying out, though. People in their 20s say they don't see such rigid barriers, at least not among their own age group.

It's definitely still a thing among my age group, though. Lennon's Working Class Hero I think was more about Americans who consider themselves part of a fluid or classless society when in fact there are still major social barriers (even without considering race issues).

The same sentiment applies here too now. People who own a house and a car can be heard saying they're middle class, but British middle-class is traditionally is more about a particular upbringing and culture, and usually a private education, as well as wealth. Plus we still have upper class, which is hereditary gentry, not wealthy business owners.

The retired oil worker with the niceish large house on a very expensive new development and a big car still won't be considered refined enough to be admitted to the golf club.

It follows that traditional middle class people aspire to rub shoulders with gentry. Working class people either aspire to be wealthy or try to copy the manners and refinement of the traditional middle class.

The thing with the class barriers is you don't know about it until you run into one. I got it a lot where I used to live, which was a mix of old school middle class and wannabe social climbers. But because I don't own a house or car, I'm considered very lower class even where I am now.

You can be turned down for a good many jobs, even quite poorly paid ones, because you're 'not the right sort of person'.

I actually think that's the case in some ways most places (think the US and 'trailer park trash'), but it's more acute here.

Interestingly, foreigners can either universally be considered socially inferior, or given the benefit of the doubt because nobody can work out where they'd fit in British class culture.

Adrian Smith did comment in an interview a few years ago about Maiden being working class blokes. Culturally, for their generation, they are.

I'll make an exception for Bruce. Of course he did go to a an old fashioned private school, even he was thrown out, and that rubbed off on him. His parents were also attempted social climbers.
 
I agree it is gradually dying out; the boundary between working class and middle class is becoming quite fuzzy with the younger generation, or at least that is my experience as an observer. Many of them have had access to (state) education opportunities their grandparents and parents did not have access to, yet they are still proud of their working class origins.

That being said, there is still a lot of work to be done to have a fairer society.
 
@GhostofCain Class is not always about fairness. It's almost like inside our DNA for who knows how long. The Constitution of India was written by an untouchable basically. Incredibly fair and done justice. However take that: Even if officially there are no casts in India and even if young generations are denouncing them, they are still making fun of their friends whose cast (family name) is to climb the trees and bring bananas and who, naturally, are still offended by that mockery.

I had a friend in Dubai whose family name was Nair (warrior cast). He was a rare case of Indian that had been married by love and not by a fixed astrology-based marriage like the 95% of everyone else (including Muslims!!). His parents were begging him to tell everyone that his marriage was fixed though, to avoid the disgrace. You'd expect the bride was from a lower cast, right? Wrong. Her family name and cast was identical as his. The guy without guidance just found one of his own.
Similarly I, in the place I grew up, discovered years later that my childhood friends were the sons and daughters of my parents' childhood friends during their time!!
 
@Brigantium The point you make about private education in the middle classes (in the UK, although it happens elsewhere too) is an interesting one.

I have been asked several times whether I would be taking my daughter to a private school “to make the most of her potential”. What??

I guess being an academic with parents/grandparents who were lecturers/teachers makes me middle class, but I have never believed in educational segregation and never will.
 
Since the original question was this:
____no5 said:
What exactly means “a working class hero is something to be”?
Like something difficult to achieve? Respectable? Or it’s ironic?
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I'll refrain from grander statements on the UK class system and say that I believe it's supposed to be - as usual with Lennon - ironic and not exactly clear to define (remember, this bloke changed fringe opinions on a whim, especially post-Beatles).

I always interpreted the song as directed at all the "heroes of the people", especially media types, who pretend to be of the hoi polloi, try to put on some of the edgy lower-class trousers and feign experience they don't have (unlike him*), as if the class distinctions didn't exist or didn't matter.

Now I'm looking at Genius and the chorus is commented thusly:
“That’s the choice they allow you – now the outlet is being a pop star, which is really what i’m saying on the song (Working Class Hero). It’s the same people who have the power, the class system didn’t change one little bit.”
  • John Lennon, Rolling Stone Interview. November, 1968**

Which would also make me think of manufacturing discontent for profit, e.g. see the 1976 Network movie or the Fifteen Million Merits episode of Black Mirror.


* I wouldn't want to judge whether or not was Lennon lower class (I'm not sure if I could have the authority on that), but with his turbulent childhood, being of Irish descent and from a divorced household, I'd say it's not a stretch to classify him as such
** not sure if the citation is correct, since the song came out on his 1970 album, but it might be correct anyway, just pointing this out
 
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GhostofCain said:
I guess being an academic with parents/grandparents who were lecturers/teachers makes me middle class, but I have never believed in educational segregation and never will.
Click to expand...

I thought the same and never wanted to do anything with private schools, but with time I sadly came to conclusion that some of them do offer better curriculum, social connections & ultimately, potential.
You can see this more clear with private Universities, if you graduate from Harvard or Stratford you have way better chances in life, quite guaranteed actually.
 
____no5 said:
I thought the same and never wanted to do anything with private schools, but with time I sadly came to conclusion that some of them do offer better curriculum, social connections & ultimately, potential.
You can see this more clear with private Universities, if you graduate from Harvard or Stratford you have way better chances in life, quite guaranteed actually.
Click to expand...

I would feel like a first class hypocrite (because I would be one) if I sent my daughter to a private school.
 
____no5 said:
@GhostofCain Class is not always about fairness. It's almost like inside our DNA for who knows how long.
Click to expand...

I know. My comment about the work that needs to be done to live in a fairer society was related to the fact that, sadly, too often people are discriminated based on their social class. The same can be said about race, religion, sexual orientation, etc.
 
GhostofCain said:
I would feel like a first class hypocrite (because I would be one) if I sent my daughter to a private school.
Click to expand...

Yeap, that's why I mentioned private (or shall I say expensive since we talk UK) Universities. People soften their views when it's about Universities for some reason. I find it to be essentially the same thing as schools. Would you feel the same if your daughter were to sent to Harvard, Oxford, or LSOE?

I declined to study in UK and have it easy just because I didn't want to pay for something that should be (in my opinion) free. I don't regret, but I would offered my kids the highest option I could afford.

And if one's ready to pay for (expensive) University what's the difference with sending his kid to primary school as well?
 
____no5 said:
Yeap, that's why I mentioned private (or shall I say expensive since we talk UK) Universities. People soften their views when it's about Universities for some reason. I find it to be essentially the same thing as schools. Would you feel the same if your daughter were to sent to Harvard, Oxford, or LSOE?

I declined to study in UK and have it easy just because I didn't want to pay for something that should be (in my opinion) free. I don't regret, but I would offered my kids the highest option I could afford.

And if one's ready to pay for (expensive) University what's the difference with sending his kid to primary school as well?
Click to expand...

I would argue that there is a massive difference: University education is not compulsory, unlike primary and secondary education. :)

Most UK Universities are not private institutions. It is true they charge fees (don't get me started on the rise introduced last decade :mad:), but that is also the case with public Universities elsewhere in Europe, although in other places they are much more heavily subsidised by the taxpayer.

A significant number of students in the UK (~1.5 million) apply for student loans. Although I do not know their financial arrangements, I would imagine that is because their parents are not paying/cannot pay for their University education.

If it were up to me, I would change the fee system though.
 
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Private school is a prestige thing a lot of time rather than about quality of education. You grow up with the 'right sort of people' and make connections.

State schools vary enormously - people sometimes basically buy their way into good state schools by buying a house in the school's catchment area. But private schools are about social circle rather than just academic achievement. I'd argue academic achievement counts for next to nothing if you're from the 'wrong' background
 
So. Braverman resigned last week or the week before, over her leaking sensitive information. She's back on the new cabinet. How does that work?
 
Brigantium said:
So. Braverman resigned last week or the week before, over her leaking sensitive information. She's back on the new cabinet. How does that work?
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I saw her referred to as a thunderously volcanic half-wit and I'm not sure that's mean enough to describe how phenomenally stupid she is.
 
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