The philosophy behind Maidens music.

[Perun]

Christianity the religion of love which killed so many people.

What are you talking about in this sentence if it's not Christianity?  Or am I seeing things?

After -and well before you ask- I said that it could apply to Judaism and Islam as well.

When and where did you say that? 

I'm going to go through that post again:

Back on topic :
For the Greater Good, is a huge song musically, yet lyrically I find it very banal. The theme is common:
Christianity the religion of love which killed so many people.
So I would have expected some more original lyrical approach, to make it more interesting, than
Please tell me now what life is
Please tell me now what love is
Well tell me now what war is
Again tell me what life is
or
For the greater good of God x 8

Look, maybe I'm stupid, but I can't see you talking about anything other than Christianity in that post? Did you forget to write half of that post or am I just not seeing it?

 

[Wästed The Great]

Just as an aside, weren't there many 'gods' that people were killed over?  I seem to recall that infants by the truck load were sacrificed to Baal, correct?  Also, and I don't know the gods of the many South American religions, but I thought that the Mayans had quite a bit of ritual sacrifice.  Now, I know that is different from the crusades (killing to convert vs. killing to satisfy the god), however, its all 'for the greater good of god', no?

 

[Perun]

Just as an aside, weren't there many 'gods' that people were killed over?  I seem to recall that infants by the truck load were sacrificed to Baal, correct?  Also, and I don't know the gods of the many South American religions, but I thought that the Mayans had quite a bit of ritual sacrifice.  Now, I know that is different from the crusades (killing to convert vs. killing to satisfy the god), however, its all 'for the greater good of god', no?

I agree, and I don't really see the difference either... whether you sacrifice somebody to a god or kill him in a crusade, it remains a murder for the greater good of God, indeed. It makes no difference for the victim, that's for sure.

 

[____no5]

Here is the post before you entered to the conversation, check the bolded phrases

Judaism? Forget about it, Jesus is not accepted.
In Islam Jesus is accepted, but only as prophet and not as a son of God.*

I don't think that any other religion made such crimes to the name of God except those three.
Killing in the name of God is originated mainly from the Book religions.

So no, I can not see this song like it is written for all the people, generally.
It's clearly written by someone that he's Christian, and focuses to the AC era
Pagan people they never mixed religion in their wars.

-----
*EDIT: Also keep in mind that Muslims they don't even accept that Jesus was crucified, they believe
that somebody else was crucified in his place

For me, it's clear. I mentioned Christianity first to be fair: Harris mentions Crucifixion.
Of course I was aware that this could apply to the two other religions,
and I tried to show that this can not apply to all religions.

Just as an aside, weren't there many 'gods' that people were killed over?  I seem to recall that infants by the truck load were sacrificed to Baal, correct?  Also, and I don't know the gods of the many South American religions, but I thought that the Mayans had quite a bit of ritual sacrifice.  Now, I know that is different from the crusades (killing to convert vs. killing to satisfy the god), however, its all 'for the greater good of god', no?

Correct. But when those people were making wars, the excuse was not for converting the others.
And the approach to the other was not 'the unbelievers' just 'the enemy'
Mayans were sacrificing their own (and noble) people as well, it makes it completely different.
In fact a lot of those sacrifices were by volunteers.

 

[Perun]

Here is the post before you entered to the conversation, check the bolded phrases

For me, it's clear. I mentioned Christianity first to be fair: Harris mentions Crucifixion.
Of course I was aware that this could apply to the two other religions,
and I tried to show that this can not apply to all religions.

Maybe read my original post as well:

Read more carefully what I said, and the answer is there : I spoke about three religions
the religions of the Book : Judaism, Christianity, Islam. The song can perfectly apply to any of those three.

For the Greater Good, is a huge song musically, yet lyrically I find it very banal. The theme is common:
Christianity the religion of love which killed so many people.

I really love it when you twist your own arguments afterward.

I pointed out the contradiction between your first post and the post you quoted in your last one. It still remains to be cleared up.

. But when those people were making wars, the excuse was not for converting the others.
And the approach to the other was not 'the unbelievers' just 'the enemy'
Mayans were sacrificing their own (and noble) people as well, it makes it completely different.
In fact a lot of those sacrifices were by volunteers.

Then maybe look at some other cultures doing human sacrifices. The Aztecs or the Celts for instance. Or what about ritual headhunting? Doesn't seem very voluntary for me. And the point is: It makes no difference for the victims.

 

[Wästed The Great]

I agree, and I don't really see the difference either... whether you sacrifice somebody to a god or kill him in a crusade, it remains a murder for the greater good of God, indeed. It makes no difference for the victim, that's for sure.

Exactly.  Now, does anyone know much about the South American religions?  I don't know if the Mayans and Incas and Aztecs killed each other often, for 'god' or just for the hell of it.  As to some of the more ancient pagan religions, I'm sure that whenever someone wanted to do battle, they blamed it on their god.  For whatever reason.  I know you had written, Per, that 300 was mostly crackpot, but I recall the oracle telling them when they could and couldn't go to war-- isn't the average oracle just a 'receptacle' for god?  How many times did Odin need the Vikings to go and kill and loot for him?  Again, I don't know these religions so well, mostly from fictional stories.

 

[Reumeren]

There are few conflicts based solely on religion, there's often a political or historical background to it all.

 

[Wästed The Great]

Correct. But when those people were making wars, the excuse was not for converting the others.
And the approach to the other was not 'the unbelievers' just 'the enemy'
Mayans were sacrificing their own (and noble) people as well, it makes it completely different.
In fact a lot of those sacrifices were by volunteers.

I'd say that we are told that they were volunteers.  I know that infants were sacrificed to Baal, and they weren't volunteers.  As to the rest, I don't know the answers.  I assume you are correct, that the people killed in a god's name were done so as enemy's, not to convert them.  However, no matter what the official word from the church was, I think that most of the people killed in the name of Christianity were killed as enemies, even if they were said to 'convert' them.  Most of the inquisition killed christians, yes?  People said to have 'strayed' away from the church?

 

[Perun]

I know you had written, Per, that 300 was mostly crackpot, but I recall the oracle telling them when they could and couldn't go to war-- isn't the average oracle just a 'receptacle' for god?  How many times did Odin need the Vikings to go and kill and loot for him?  Again, I don't know these religions so well, mostly from fictional stories.

Most ancient wars had a religious component, and of course deeply religious societies like the Spartans listened to their Oracles and obeyed their holidays... that part of 300 wasn't made up (the Persian bribe was).
It's been a while since I looked into this, but I do seem to remember that the Persian Wars in particular were to an extent a war of faith in the sense that both sides were told they were commanded by divine forces to fight.

Most pre-Christian religions said that it was fate that commanded them, and it was not to be questioned - nor explained - why they fought. The "Abrahamic" religions (a term that was coined by the Muslims, btw) were based on a much more critical and conscious foundation, and each action needed to be explained in a way that it fits with God's master plan.

 

[Forostar]

no2. From where it comes that my view is fundamentalist?

Well, I meant I had the idea that you took one specific item of the text, therefore perhaps missing the broader picture of the song.

That's how fundamentalists interpret (e.g.) the Bible or the Koran.

Further no offense meant, naturally.

 

[____no5]

Exactly.  Now, does anyone know much about the South American religions?  I don't know if the Mayans and Incas and Aztecs killed each other often, for 'god' or just for the hell of it.  As to some of the more ancient pagan religions, I'm sure that whenever someone wanted to do battle, they blamed it on their god.  For whatever reason.  I know you had written, Per, that 300 was mostly crackpot, but I recall the oracle telling them when they could and couldn't go to war-- isn't the average oracle just a 'receptacle' for god?  How many times did Odin need the Vikings to go and kill and loot for him?  Again, I don't know these religions so well, mostly from fictional stories.

In the pagan religions killing a man was the most of the times ok, so there is no contradictory with the religion ethics.
Plus, the ancient were making wars for the land and certainly not to convert the others.
Greeks and Romans they were calling their enemies 'barbarians' which is a cultural approach
nothing to do with 'unbelievers'.

Well, I meant I had the idea that you took one specific item of the text, therefore perhaps missing the broader picture of the song.

That's how fundamentalists interpret (e.g.) the Bible or the Koran.

Further no offense meant, naturally.

No I believe that Harris has chosen Christianity for a reason : Is the religion of Love,
where by no means one has to kill an other person. Of course this can apply to other religions,
but with the example of Christ, it's more strong the message of the song

 

[Wästed The Great]

Gotcha.  I had assumed the discussion was based on the morality of killing people for their god, in one way or another, not based on the ethics of ones own religion and the contradiction there of.

 

[79transam]

Well, I meant I had the idea that you took one specific item of the text, therefore perhaps missing the broader picture of the song.

That's how fundamentalists interpret (e.g.) the Bible or the Koran.

Further no offense meant, naturally.

@ broader picture. As this threads evolution gives credence to. Pardon my grammar everyone, I still look at the keys when I type. Thanks for the welcome.

---

I find a lot of the songs tend to not always exactly be from the writers perspective, but of the perspective of the song itself, like the person in the song, or who the song is about. Its as if the songwriter has a keen ability to step outside of his own shoes.

 

[Reumeren]

Yes, that's why I never got why people got so mad over Afraid to Shoot Strangers. The thoughts and ideas where in the head of a soldier, not Steve himself.

 

[Forostar]

No I believe that Harris has chosen Christianity for a reason...

I suggest take a(nother) look at the AMOLAD "making of"-documentary, and let's see what you think about what the songwriter himself has to say.

 

[____no5]

I haven't see it and I won't see it soon, so tell me what you think or what Harris says in order to continue this talk...

I'm suspecting though, that he's putting all religions in the same basket -a classic mistake.
If our religion contradicts with itself -or I don't know which else religion does-
this doesn't mean that all religions made crimes in the name of their god.
This, I won't accept it. Buddhists, Hinduists, Native Americans, Confucians  and many more they've never used their religion
in such a terrible way that is described in the song. Sorry. 

 

[Jonszat]

"There's a line in the song that says "Religion has a lot to answer for" and it's kinda an argument. I'm not anti-religious in anyway really but I'm not pro-religion either, so we had a few debates about it, kinda thing, and I think it's quite relevant to whats going at the moment. It just ask the question really" Steve Harris from the making of A Matter of Life and Death.

 

[____no5]

"There's a line in the song that says "Religion has a lot to answer for" and it's kinda an argument.

Yeah, I'm aware of it. Yet not all religions say the same things, and most important not all cultures that were representing
some specific religions acted the same through history.

A classic mistake a modern western man does, is projecting his issues and making philosophy by generalizing after.
It's very usual nowadays to hear 'religion made terrible crimes /holy wars etc etc'
but this is simply our projection, cause Western World is mainly Christian.

I'm sorry but I've never heard any crimes made by ancient Lithuanians or whatever in the name of their god -oak
 

 

[Forostar]

I haven't see it and I won't see it soon, so tell me what you think or what Harris says in order to continue this talk...

I'm suspecting though, that he's putting all religions in the same basket -a classic mistake.
If our religion contradicts with itself -or I don't know which else religion does-
this doesn't mean that all religions made crimes in the name of their god.
This, I won't accept it. Buddhists, Hinduists, Native Americans, Confucians  and many more they've never used their religion
in such a terrible way that is described in the song. Sorry. 

A. First you thought you knew what Steve wanted to say.
B. Then you're getting to the point that you realize that you are wrong (Steve did not mean it the way you think about this, and you rather don't want to see this contradiction on the DVD yourself)
C. So now you're telling Steve is wrong.

Why would I help someone who
- has already drawn his own prejudiced conclusion
- hasn't cared about the songwriter's true intention until this very hour (you didn't want to believe us earlier)
- didn't even buy the album when it came out

A waste of effort, sorry.

edot: Wouldn't it have been handier if you would have said: I understand what Steve meant but I disagree.

 

[____no5]

Why would I help someone who
- has already drawn his own prejudiced conclusion
- who doesn't give a shit about the songwriter's intention
- who didn't even buy the album when it came out

A waste of effort, sorry.

I'm waiting you to tell me, with no prejudice -try me.
Who says that ?? I guessed something but maybe I'm wrong. I won't have a problem to accept my mistake, you know I won't
I buy the LPs... All these compilations, Live DVDs etc do not interest me