The Official LGBTQ Thread

There's an incredible amount of discrimination towards LGBT people in Turkey, but there's one that absolutely disgusts me. Conscription is enforced in Turkey but LGBT people are not allowed to serve. You have to go through a "test" to "prove your gayness". That "test" ranges from showing the officials pictures and videos of you engaging in sexual activity with a person of the gender (a relationship where you have to be the passive one), watching gay porn to show the officials that you get an erection from it, etc. If you "pass", they hand you a pink colored certificate.
 
I believe he is pointing out the hypocrisy of speech freedoms on one hand compared to hate speech laws on the other.
 
In Europe some countries try to make a difference out here. It isn't easy but there is a realization that where's hate speech, there will be / is discrimination too. Young people who now curse gays could later still think they are the dirtiest and the worst of the worst sinners who should be evaded.

There are school programs and there should be more to explain kids in class about it. Recently a program in some school received a prize for doing this well (3 youth: a jew, a muslim and a gay talked about dealing with differences and prejudice and such).
 
The difference is that in US law, hate speech laws would be unconstitutional. What the Americans have instead done, traditionally, is criminalize hate acts.

Forostar said:
There are school programs and there should be more to explain kids in class about it. Recently a program in some school received a prize for doing this well (3 youth: a jew, a muslim and a gay talked about dealing with differences and prejudice and such).
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This is called education, and it is the best/only way to combat hate speech. Laws just force them to be quiet about it.
 
LooseCannon said:
The difference is that in US law, hate speech laws would be unconstitutional. What the Americans have instead done, traditionally, is criminalize hate acts.
Laws just force them to be quiet about it.
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That is a problem, it is better having these people out in the open where others can use their right of free speech to have a a conversation and educate people about issues. Otherwise you are just sweeping problems under the rug and glamorizing/giving a rebel image to these hate groups

The Skokie case in the US (mid 1970s) is a perfect example of this the ACLU (with a large Jewish membership) defended the American Nazi parties right to hold a march in Skokie, IL. A heavily Jewish area with many concentration camp survivors as their residents.

The Nazis, who had been having some success recruiting to that point, but the counter protesters and the Nazis own activities were brought to light and what incredibly minimal support they had went by the wayside and it was a good reminder to everyone what they stood for.

Open discussion beats the squashing of opinions every time .. there have been a limitless number of examples where governments have held down speech for the very things you support now (gay rights certainly come to mind) and if you give them the power to limit speech for anything, you give them the potential to limit it for everything
 
What a naive point of view. Maybe you should be gay or jew in a densely populated city in which e.g. groups of muslims like to call out to these other minorities.

In most of such cases, open discussions lead to people getting beat up. You really have to be a masochist to do this. Education should give room for discussions. But not everybody can discuss without getting aggressive. Not all environments are safe or suited for discussions. When a hatespeech is given in a mosque or church, it's going to be hard to have an open discussion about it, during a mass.

What's bad about hatespeech? Hatespeech can give people the wrong idea. They make people act wrongfully. Cursing, hurting people because they are gay is wrong. And here we come to the core of the problem. And perhaps to the core of our differences. You don't want to stand up for people who feel threatened, or unsafe in society. You are satsified if these victims move to another city.

My point? Restrict hatespeech. Education is fine, but weren't the Germans well educated before Hitler was in power? If that mustache man had held his filth with him.... when speech is tolerated, it's getting normal that people are treated unjustfully. Violence gets normal. People didn't act when minorities got hurt in the past.

And you can't educate everybody. That's so naive.

Anyway, ask gays or other minorities where they prefer to live. You betcha that they choose places where laws protect them, and serve equality.
 
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So now you're suggesting that we police what religious leaders say in their own churches to make sure they aren't anti-gay, and if they are, we should arrest them?
 
Perhaps I am wrong, but I have the impression that you and bearfan think that the wellbeing of minorities, who can (directly or indirectly) suffer under hatespeech, is not as important as the right of free speech (which hatespeech is referred to).

You say: only educate people. That's enough. I say it isn't.

Do you prefer US law over Canadian law?

If I understood well, Canadian law bans all anti-gay discrimination, including hate speech.

This bastard (son of Dutch immigrants)
was charged and convicted of hate speech in 1984. The conviction was overturned by the Court of Appeal but re-instated by the Supreme Court of Canada. The decision received substantial international attention and became a landmark Canadian legal case.
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I draw a distinction between speech and an act. If someone does something criminal (like assault), sure arrest them.

I am 10000000000000000% opposed to arresting or imposing punishment on someone for expressing an opinion.

It is really that simple, that kind of power has been abused time and time again over history, is being abused now in many places, and will continue to be abused in the future.
 
Forostar said:
Do you prefer US law over Canadian law?
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In this aspect, yes, I do. Hate speech laws trouble me greatly.

Edit: Also, Foro, answer the question I asked. I'll ask it again: do you believe that we should police religious buildings and arrest religious leaders with anti-gay opinions?
 
bearfan said:
I would remove the word "hate" from that .. they are speech laws
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I am willing to postulate that there are limits on speech, such as slander. Slander is also a speech law, and we protect against it quite sturdily.
 
LooseCannon said:
I am willing to postulate that there are limits on speech, such as slander. Slander is also a speech law, and we protect against it quite sturdily.
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That is a fair point ... I guess libel and treason fit in there as well. But in generally the less the better
 
bearfan said:
treason
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Is an act, not a form of expression. You can stand in front of the White House and burn flags and say this place should be bombed by Iran all day long if you want. That's not treason. Treason is the act of giving comfort to the enemy - helping them, selling secrets, attacking, etc.
 
Is hate speech (as Foro defines it) not a little further a long the road from slander &/or treason?

Can I ask: do you have a problem, generally, with the laws themselves (bearfan, I'm guessing you do); or is it more their application or potential application? You see, I worry about the application of many new laws (too); particularly those that have been passed in association with terrorism etc. However, I don't in principle (sort of relevant here) have a problem with laws that are unenforceable.
 
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LooseCannon said:
Is an act, not a form of expression. You can stand in front of the White House and burn flags and say this place should be bombed by Iran all day long if you want. That's not treason. Treason is the act of giving comfort to the enemy - helping them, selling secrets, attacking, etc.
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Yeah, that is not treason .. saying "our troops are at these coordinates" ... you can bomb them here is treason
 
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