Yax
Ancient Mariner
Exactly. The argument is dead in the water.
Russia invades Ukraine
- Thread starter Perun
- Start date
Azas
Hermit at the End of the Universe
Congress, approve Ukraine bill, please.
@Tendar wrote this:
"Russia and its lesser minions are in overdrive mode trying to persuade that military help for Ukraine will not make a difference and therefore shouldn’t happen, but this a very transparent move. The reality is that they are absolutely terrified that the next aid package will succeed. There is a bipartisan majority in the US Congress on this matter and the border security bill, which was good, only failed because of one failed former guy. This remaining minority made their name in obstructing in everything and everyone without any vision for the USA or any other country. This is not a winning strategy and people will not stand for that. When the obstructionist fail, then their house of cards collapses and Putin’s bluff gets exposed.Ukrainians are making Russians pay for each inch of Ukrainian space. The Russian invaders literally have to step over their own fallen comrades who got sacrificed in countless meat waves. The skies are full of buzzing drones who got crafted in basements by thousands of volunteers in Ukraine and worldwide, destroying in masses Russian hardware and manpower. When the Ukrainian military receives those supplies, which will be produced in states such as Pennsylvania, Texas, Arizona, Wisconsin and elsewhere, then Putin will find himself in a quagmire which already surpassed the quagmire in Afghanistan and Vietnam by 20 times. Putin has no strategy beyond that point. Stopping Western aid is his last chance to save him another few more years. At the same time, I also see change in European states. We are still not where Europe could be and the speed is by far not at maximum but the course is increasingly getting better. The German government is slow, but the German industry is getting speed. That as well deeply disturbs Putin and his Western lackeys.Ukrainians will not surrender. 90% are against any concessions to the Russians and they have all reason to be. Moscow has violated every single treaty and they would do this again.Ukrainians will fight for theie homeland and they will defend it with whatever means they have and they will do this to their full liberation. They do this already since 2014 and their odds in the past were smaller than today. When putting the pieces together which I read from the battlefield then I see a sustainable strategy which can not only outlast the Russian onslaught but also destroy scores of Russian invaders and cause significant damage in Russia itself, enough damage to cripple most of Russia’s industrial capabilities and eventually bringing it down. This together with another sanction package is nothing what Russia can outlast for a long time. The Soviet Untion which was 10 times stronger than this Russia couldn’t survive this. In the end, somebody in Russia will realize this situation and pull the plug on Putin, ending this war which Russia will never be able to win. We just have to make sure that Ukraine does this in the most efficient way by having enough ammunition, long-range weapons and the edge in technology.Those members in the US Congress and Senate can make history by granting Ukraine those means to finish off one of America’s and the West’s most aggressive enemies. This in turn will solidify Western resolve in the coming decades and bolster our position in the world. The returns of that investments will be immeasurable."
And by the way, fuck Elon Musk.
"Elon Musk urges Americans to pressure senators not to approve extension of military aid to Ukraine, – Bloomberg."This spending does not help Ukraine. Prolonging the war is not good for Ukraine", – the American billionaire said.
Musk said he was "interested in stopping people from dying on both sides of the war", adding that he doubted the wisdom of seeking putin's ouster."
@Tendar wrote this:
"Russia and its lesser minions are in overdrive mode trying to persuade that military help for Ukraine will not make a difference and therefore shouldn’t happen, but this a very transparent move. The reality is that they are absolutely terrified that the next aid package will succeed. There is a bipartisan majority in the US Congress on this matter and the border security bill, which was good, only failed because of one failed former guy. This remaining minority made their name in obstructing in everything and everyone without any vision for the USA or any other country. This is not a winning strategy and people will not stand for that. When the obstructionist fail, then their house of cards collapses and Putin’s bluff gets exposed.Ukrainians are making Russians pay for each inch of Ukrainian space. The Russian invaders literally have to step over their own fallen comrades who got sacrificed in countless meat waves. The skies are full of buzzing drones who got crafted in basements by thousands of volunteers in Ukraine and worldwide, destroying in masses Russian hardware and manpower. When the Ukrainian military receives those supplies, which will be produced in states such as Pennsylvania, Texas, Arizona, Wisconsin and elsewhere, then Putin will find himself in a quagmire which already surpassed the quagmire in Afghanistan and Vietnam by 20 times. Putin has no strategy beyond that point. Stopping Western aid is his last chance to save him another few more years. At the same time, I also see change in European states. We are still not where Europe could be and the speed is by far not at maximum but the course is increasingly getting better. The German government is slow, but the German industry is getting speed. That as well deeply disturbs Putin and his Western lackeys.Ukrainians will not surrender. 90% are against any concessions to the Russians and they have all reason to be. Moscow has violated every single treaty and they would do this again.Ukrainians will fight for theie homeland and they will defend it with whatever means they have and they will do this to their full liberation. They do this already since 2014 and their odds in the past were smaller than today. When putting the pieces together which I read from the battlefield then I see a sustainable strategy which can not only outlast the Russian onslaught but also destroy scores of Russian invaders and cause significant damage in Russia itself, enough damage to cripple most of Russia’s industrial capabilities and eventually bringing it down. This together with another sanction package is nothing what Russia can outlast for a long time. The Soviet Untion which was 10 times stronger than this Russia couldn’t survive this. In the end, somebody in Russia will realize this situation and pull the plug on Putin, ending this war which Russia will never be able to win. We just have to make sure that Ukraine does this in the most efficient way by having enough ammunition, long-range weapons and the edge in technology.Those members in the US Congress and Senate can make history by granting Ukraine those means to finish off one of America’s and the West’s most aggressive enemies. This in turn will solidify Western resolve in the coming decades and bolster our position in the world. The returns of that investments will be immeasurable."
And by the way, fuck Elon Musk.
"Elon Musk urges Americans to pressure senators not to approve extension of military aid to Ukraine, – Bloomberg."This spending does not help Ukraine. Prolonging the war is not good for Ukraine", – the American billionaire said.
Musk said he was "interested in stopping people from dying on both sides of the war", adding that he doubted the wisdom of seeking putin's ouster."
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Onhell
Infinite Dreamer
Western leaders point finger at Putin after Alexei Navalny’s death in jail
Russian opposition leader’s death described as political assassination attributable to president
www.theguardian.com
"Biden in 2021 promised “devastating” consequences for Russia if Navalny were to die behind bars" Um, right... more slaps on the wrist? More proxy support for Ukraine? Gonna cut his cable? Ugh.
____no5
Free Man
Adviivka has been reportedly fallen.
www.nytimes.com
On other news Zaluzhniy has been finally fired by Zelensky and replaced by Syrsky which made more sense than putting Budanov, who is said to be proposed the position but refused, who knows if it’s true. Syrsky who never stopped fighting even after the fall of the city, previously in Bakhmut, decided now to withdraw his troops. I didn’t expect that from him that early in his role, but I guess he thinks differently now that he is in charge of the whole armed forces. He is considered to be more supportive to Zelensky than Zaluzhniy who now joined Poroshenko’s party. Whatever Syrsky does we can be sure he has Zelensky’s blessings, at least for now.
What to Know About the Fall of Avdiivka
Russia’s capture of a city that had been a stronghold of Ukrainian defenses in the Donetsk region is a strategic and symbolic blow.
On other news Zaluzhniy has been finally fired by Zelensky and replaced by Syrsky which made more sense than putting Budanov, who is said to be proposed the position but refused, who knows if it’s true. Syrsky who never stopped fighting even after the fall of the city, previously in Bakhmut, decided now to withdraw his troops. I didn’t expect that from him that early in his role, but I guess he thinks differently now that he is in charge of the whole armed forces. He is considered to be more supportive to Zelensky than Zaluzhniy who now joined Poroshenko’s party. Whatever Syrsky does we can be sure he has Zelensky’s blessings, at least for now.
____no5
Free Man
Above statement was probably not accurate. It seems that Syrsky just ordered the withdrawal to save face as Azov battalion disobeyed orders anyway and left the city once they entered.
"That retreat was a significant blow to Zelensky's prestige and, apparently, there were angry phone calls from Munich to Syrsky. But Syrsky had little choice, other than to openly surrender. Instead he announced a "new" strategy, precisely what Zaluzhny had previously recommended."
So in the end Zaluzhny's sacking, triggered by his belief that Adviivka was a lost cause, whereas Zelensky wanted to hold at any cost, was all for nothing.
REGIME CHANGE IS COMING ...TO KIEV
Zelensky May Soon Be Forced Out Thanks to Avdiivka
weapons.substack.com
Another interesting fact that I found on internet, is that Syrsky is an ethnic Russian with Soviet training, with most of his family actually living in Russia now. Stark contrast with Zaluzhny's profile who is an ethnic Ukrainian with Ukrainian /NATO training and with strong appeal to nationalists.
Azas
Hermit at the End of the Universe
Avdiivka fell because russians had enormous air and artillery* superiority. Yet they suffered huge equipment and personel losses.
*thanks to Mike Johnson and Trumpists.
And this whole "REGIME CHANGE IS COMING ...TO KIEV" is pro russia bullshit. Around 70% Ukrainians support Zelensky. He was elected in democratic elections. REGIME IS IN MOSCOW, NOT KYIV.
Himars bingo:
*thanks to Mike Johnson and Trumpists.
And this whole "REGIME CHANGE IS COMING ...TO KIEV" is pro russia bullshit. Around 70% Ukrainians support Zelensky. He was elected in democratic elections. REGIME IS IN MOSCOW, NOT KYIV.
Himars bingo:
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____no5
Free Man
Not accurate. Even if they had agreed on the aid, that money would have translated to arms months or year later. It’s not that they are stockpiled somewhere waiting for Mike Johnson to ok. Contracts must be drafted, production to start etc.
The person who wrote the article seems trustworthy in terms of integrity, that’s why I bothered to link it.
Not all the arguments that we happen to not like are propaganda and discarded immediately as such. Sometimes are just other views.
Anyway, I am not sold on the regime change argument either, I just linked it for that Syrsky thing.
Azas
Hermit at the End of the Universe
Disagree. If Ukraine bill was approved much earlier, Ukraine's army would have enough artillery.
The word REGIME author uses is pretty revealing... He implies that Ukrainian government is not democratic. That's a big LIE. Like I said, Regime is in Moscow, not Kyiv.
____no5
Free Man
This bill thing is going on only 2-3 months, I'd think this money needed to be approved before the counter-offensive to have some tangible results in Adviivka.
Valid point, however Zelensky's legitimacy is ending in a few months that his term will expire and this was probably taken into account by the author.
EDIT: Read the article again, I think he is based his "regime" thing on the martial law.
Azas
Hermit at the End of the Universe
Ha ha ha, and now you bringing this. There can't be elections held during war, we already discussed that. Safety of the people, etc. And most importantly, HOW ABOUT putin's LEGITIMACY, HUH? It ended in which year? As I see, You do not have any problem with that.
*
Interestingly, 2-5 days ago, I saw somewhere on twitter that ruzzia launched disinformation campaign against Syrskyi... Article, link to which you posted, may be of that nature.
____no5
Free Man
It's not about what I and you think, it's what his opponents i.e., Poroshenko -Zaluzhny, Tymoshenko etc., (will) do. The fact that Zaluzhny joined Poroshenko's party in no time after his sacking could be a clue towards that.
There are cases where elections held during a war, thus I don't think elections are a no go for Zelensky, if they were so why Lindsey Graham to push Zelensky to held elections last year?
____no5
Free Man
It is a risky move, his record /reputation is not so good, he is ethnic Russian with parents & brother living in Russia and allegedly supporting Putin.
He is a sympathetic figure to me but many nationalists may not like him. Take Azov regiment for example, they literally disobeyed the first order he ever gave, this was not a good start for him.
He is certainly loyal to Zelensky and has no problem to apply the latter’s often irrational wishes.
Remember Surovikin? He was not liked when he proposed the Russian withdrawal from Kherson, but in hindsight his decision was the right one. He was also the brain behind the fortifications that crushed Ukraine’s counteroffensive and that’s why some people call it “Surovikin line”.
Sometimes great generals must counter-argue their leaders, sacrificing PR stunts for a long term strategic purpose, this is what Surovikin did to his credit and this is what Zaluzhny tried to do and got fired.
Zelensky gives too much importance to the optics which has been proven catastrophic more than once.
Azas
Hermit at the End of the Universe
So... how many "Su" jets Ukraine downed in a week? ~7 or 8. Just an hour ago yet another massive radar aircraft A-50 was downed.... Conclusion: when Ukraine's army has appropriate instruments, ruzzians are losing. Remember Black Sea's fleet... In this light, hesitation of the West - USA - to provide all needed weapons is especially bad and criminal. One word SABOTAGE. As if the West does not want ruzzia to lose and Ukraine achieve fair peace. End this indecisiveness once and for all! Germany, give TAURUS. ruzzia must lose!
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