Russia invades Ukraine

There’s some pretty graphic videos of burnt out Russian armour going about on Facebook. The Ukrainians are fighting like honey badgers.
 
The_7th_one said:
As a European citizen I feel that EU has failed to Ukraine and this shows how weak we are. Putin knew this.
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This seems to be the general sentiment here. Especially due to both Munich agreement and the opression we had under the USSR after the Americans backed up and let us be "saved" by the USSR army at the end of the war, we tend to be touchy about that. And Ukraine is very close to us, especally since we broke up with Slovakia not that long ago.

So far the general mood in the population here in Czechia is that the West will do nothing. Just "send a letter", wag a finger and then starts gulping up gas again. Many people here are saying that Ukraine has been sold, and if the EU countries could or had to, they would sell us in just the same way. There is literally hundreds of memes about this.
Olaf Scholz in particular is becoming reeeeeally hated on the social media.

Our Prime Minister has just said that with the CCCP experience we have, we must take it seriously and that our sanctions and reactions will be more immediate and more strident than the West's. Even our president, who used to be a pro-Russian a**hole, bordering on open collaboration, has said that the sanctions are mostly just laughable and that we must do something really strong and openly denounced Putin and Russia.

Honestly, Germany in particular has done more for the general mistrust of the EU and for impulses to leave the Union in these past few days than Putin has with all his hybrid war and covert fake news media.

Not passing judgement, just saying how it looks like here.
 
Azas said:
There's a chance for Europe to redeem themselves. Open Lend-Lease of guns to Ukraine. Now. Ukrainians defending their country. They fight for democratic values. Give them guns.
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There's been millions and millions of dollars worth of arm transfers in the past few months. Where do you think they're getting the Javelins that are knocking out tanks?
 
Attention dead and burned bodies of mordor soldiers. And I am not sad at all.
"...for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."
Video
 
Yax said:
Indeed. And Zalinsky is, among many, a hero. A sharp contrast to the former Afghan president.
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I find him very admirable considering the challenges he’s facing. The Afghan president decided to flee and become a footnote in history. Zelenksy has stayed and may become a legend. Finally someone who understands what leadership means.
 
Also, dunno if you mentioned it in this thread but

- they blew up a fucking kindergarten (dead kids as casualties) and fired shots at an orphanage
- they are attacking civilian sites and target civilians, a captured Russian soldier has confirmed they were ordered to do so
- there have been Russian soldiers wearing Ukrainian uniforms trying to steal military machinery
- there has been footage of killing Ukrainian captives by the Russian soldiers

Either and any of these is a serious war crime.

Like, seriously, if we wanted to perform justice, Putin would be dancing his last dance at the end of a rope in front of the Hague Tribunal.

However, the losses on the Russian side have been also really severe. The people of Ukraine are fucking awesome. They fight like men possessed.
If Sabaton won't write a song about this similar to 40:1, I will personally look up and stalk Joachim to get off his ass and do so.
 
LooseCannon said:
Exactly where will the get them? Can't fly them into Kyiv. There's been millions and millions sent and more coming, surely, but it's not just a weapons issue, either.
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ok mister, then do absolutely nothing. wait till "Your time will cooome"...
 
JudasMyGuide said:
However, the losses on the Russian side have been also really severe. The people of Ukraine are fucking awesome. They fight like men possessed.
If Sabaton won't write a song about this similar to 40:1, I will personally look up and stalk Joachim to get off his ass and do so.
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Yes, and we're seeing a lot of strong resistance. I think stronger than the Russians intended. But also, we need to be cautious when accepting at face value Ukrainian statements. I want them to win, and I want us to provide all aid short of war, but keep in mind that they are also a government spreading propaganda.
 
LooseCannon said:
Yes, and we're seeing a lot of strong resistance. I think stronger than the Russians intended. But also, we need to be cautious when accepting at face value Ukrainian statements. I want them to win, and I want us to provide all aid short of war, but keep in mind that they are also a government spreading propaganda.
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I agree, I'm trying to take my information from the people here who however have strong ties to Ukraine or even Belarus, and whom I consider to be as trustworthy as can be probably expected. However, if in the meantime I - with good faith - spread some pro-Ukraine propaganda, well, I think I can live with myself all the same.

I am very emotionally invested in this. I can't work properly, thinking about it, we are sending more money than we had set aside for charity so far and if I wrote something here that might seem wrong to you, I apologise in advance.
 
Yax said:
We really, really should join NATO. There's even a parliament majority, but it's a government decision, who are opposed (minority government).


Finland, maybe. Sweden has been going with its delusional "neutrality" policy for deccades and decades and still officially swears by it (we're still NATO partners, but that doesn't mean much in the end). The government won't enter into it I think, but had the opposition been in control we probably would.

And we really should.
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Bundespresident Cassis said Switzerland will adopt the majority of EU sanctions, but this is not enough for the EU. So, as expected, the Swiss political discussion is between the right that insists on more neutrality, while the left wants to adopt all sanctions. Who is right?
 
I know this is going to sound like a cold bureaucratic view, so I want to say in advance that I've literally been feeling sick since I saw the first footage from Ukraine and there have been moments when I nearly cried.
I think we need to understand that Putin broke every law there legally and morally is to break with this invasion, and we can't just follow suit and break laws to punish him. We must reassure everyone, including Ukraine and Russia, that the rule of law is the highest principle we follow and it is the highest achievement of our civilisation, and we won't let a band of gangsters in the Kremlin put it into question.
Thus, the appropriate response is to sanction Russia with all the outmost measures legally available to us, and I think that cutting SWIFT and Nord Stream 1 would cripple what little is left of Russia's economy. We cannot breach the law, though. There is no legal pretext for military action from NATO. That's hard to accept, but I do think the legal options would be enough to bring Putin to his knees, if only we had the balls to implement them with full consequence.
 
And here we probably disagree.
Rule of law isn't the highest principle by any means. Even if the law was still connected to its origins, it is only means to an end. There is a lot of examples when doing what is lawful and doing what is right is not the same.

Whatever you think of the just war theory, when you have someone stronger attacking someone weaker (and killing children and civilians on the way), then I say to act on behalf of the oppressed is our duty. That is the principle I follow and one of the highest achievements of our civilsation in my opinion.

The West has learned to find "oppression" and to fight it everywhere except where it matters.
 
That said, maybe the things you propose will indeed cripple Russia (if it won't keep expanding and live off the momentum) and maybe it will be enough.

But a lot of people around me feel that to even cut them off SWIFT and push some sanctions that would really matter took a damn long time for the EU leaders.
 
jazz from hell said:
Bundespresident Cassis said Switzerland will adopt the majority of EU sanctions, but this is not enough for the EU. So, as expected, the Swiss political discussion is between the right that insists on more neutrality, while the left wants to adopt all sanctions. Who is right?
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Sanctions, sanctions and more sanctions. Switzerland should join the EU sanctions. Everybody is on board with sanctions here in Sweden though, which is the least you can ask. I hope we will join NATO at least down the line. Russia is putting pressure yet again regarding whether we'll join and I guess the government might not want to poke the bear at this point but is still hoping NATO would bail Sweden out in case of aggression...
 
There are speculations following (unconfirmed) Ukranian intelligence reports, that Russia might send out the Spetsnaz to eliminate Zalinsky and his peers.
 
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