Random thoughts

I'd love to hear Cicero's and Plato's thoughts on our current political order. Would Cicero approve of our western "democratic" model, since it does found on his idea of res publica? Or would he disapprove because most politicians always have their reelection in mind? After all, the Romans knew of this problem and only let someone in office once every ten years. And what would Plato, the brain behind the "enlightened dictature" say? Would he step back from his ideas because of the high grade of political stability we have in the west, or would he say we should all be a bit more like Singapore?
 
Perun said:
Would Cicero approve of our western "democratic" model, since it does found on his idea of res publica? Or would he disapprove because most politicians always have their reelection in mind?
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I'm sure that these great minds would quickly understand the socio-political development that led us to where we are now. Apart from human nature, there were so many factors (wars, recessions, rise and fall of powerful individuals, climate changes etc.) that contributed to today's situation that it may seem inevitable.

The other thing that I would be interested to hear, would be their suggestions for possible solutions. Surely not ten year's office, that would be way too long in today's terms :)
 
SinisterMinisterX said:
I've always thought it would be interesting to take a person from the past into our present time and show them the fruits of their actions or the modern equivalent of their area of interest.
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"Oh hey, Missy...I mean, mom.  I'm just having some friends over...uh...this is...Dennis Freud, Bob Genghis Khan, Maxime of Ark, Dave Beethoven, So Crates Johnson, Ermine the Kid...and Abraham Lincoln."
In all seriousness, if there's anyone who should be brought Back to the Future, it's our good ol' friend Thomas Jefferson.  TJ is possibly the Greatest American who ever lived.  I wonder how he would find the State of the Union today.  How would he feel about the various administrations...how would he feel about Bush, the political parties, and the politicization of the Supreme Court?  Surely he could tell us what that damned Second Amendment is actually supposed to mean.  Would he think the way things turned out after the Civil War were good?

All in all, it would be...fascinating.
 
LooseCannon said:
"Oh hey, Missy...I mean, mom.  I'm just having some friends over...uh...this is...Dennis Freud, Bob Genghis Khan, Maxime of Ark, Dave Beethoven, So Crates Johnson, Ermine the Kid...and Abraham Lincoln."
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Best. Film. Ever.
 
LooseCannon said:
Thomas Jefferson ... is possibly the Greatest American who ever lived.  I wonder how he would find the State of the Union today.
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Even his contemporaries would disagree with you -- George Washington was, by far, the most respected American of his era, inspiring near-religious reverence by the Founding Fathers.  Benjamin Franklin was probably #2.  And, it's tough to top Abraham Lincoln as the greatest American ever, at least among presidents.  The long-term contributions of Oliver Wendell Holmes to American law and J.P. Morgan to the American economy, and the sheer number of lives saved by Jonas Salk, cannot be overlooked.  Einstein was an American citizen, too.  Martin Luther King, Jr. is probably up there.  I'd put Jefferson #3 behind Lincoln and Washington. 

You may be interested to know that a poll on this very question has already been conducted by the Discovery Channel.  The winner will surprise (and perhaps outrage) many of you:  http://dsc.discovery.com/convergence/greatestamerican/greatestamerican.html.

As for what Jefferson would think of the U.S. government today, I think he'd be appalled.  Recall that he wanted very little power in the hands of the federal government, and wanted states to have virtually all the power.  That is most certainly not the case any longer.  Power became increasingly consolidated in the federal government during the New Deal and WW2, and the centralization of power has only increased since then, except perhaps during the administration of George H.W. Bush.   
 
 
Speaking as a professional Reagan-hater, I have seen and already disregarded the Discovery poll.  But hey, that's me.

When I look back on it, as a student of both history and politics, I can honestly say I prefer Jefferson to Washington and Franklin.  I mean, hard to say that about me namesake (sorry, Ben), but while I recognize the importance of George Washington in shaping the US government, I think it is Jefferson's reign as Secretary of State and as President that made some major definitions on the evolution of the US of A.  Specifically his programs of expansion, his post-presidency interpretation of the Constitution, his assistance in the negotiation of the Tripoli Accords (where it specifically states that the USA is not a Christian nation, signed by Adams, Jefferson, and the Senate)...etc.

Honestly, we could argue about those three men's position over, and over, and over.  But I will gladly concede that they are the three greatest Americans, and maybe we should just resurrect all three of 'em.
 
I agree with LC. Lincoln was good, no doubt, but arguments could EASILY be made otherwise. Hell, to this day you have essay contests asking "Lincoln? Liberator or Tyrant?" You'd ask that of the greatest American ever? I doubt it. But I wonder if Jefferson would be appalled after all. Remember the New Deal and other such programs and policies arose do to severe crisis. I'm sure he'd concede and at the very least UNDERSTAND why such actions were taken. He might argue such consolidation is no longer necessary, but it was the people, it IS the people that have slowly voted and decided for such atrocity to occur. The wonderful system that is democracy and an un/misinformed public has chosen the current state.
 
LooseCannon said:
But I will gladly concede that they are the three greatest Americans, and maybe we should just resurrect all three of 'em.
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The three greatest Americans? Don't get me started on that...
 
Perun said:
The three greatest Americans? Don't get me started on that...
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too late. what? you think Bill Cosby, Bill Gates and Bill Clinton are the greatest Americans? The greatest bills not made of paper or passed through congress or just scandilicious? :p
 
The three greatest Americans? Don't get me started on that...
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Surely Onhell must be included on your list.  ;)


I think it is Jefferson's reign as Secretary of State and as President that made some major definitions on the evolution of the US of A.  Specifically his programs of expansion
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He does get credit for the Lousiana Purchase but I give Napoleon honorary greatest American kudos for that. He's the one that, through his conquests, put France in such a financial state as to necessitate selling a good portion of North America to us.
 
Well, TJ did actively pursue the Louisiana Purchase, to forestall the emergence of a French Empire stretching from New Orleans to Vancouver Island to Argentina.  In doing so, it was made abundantly clear that the United States was to be considered the pre-eminent power in North America.  When Great Britain disagreed with that, James Madison invaded Canada, fought the Royal Navy to a draw, and managed to get the White House burned to the ground.
 
Oh, That's right! Don't you guys still consider Arizona part of Mexico anyway? You know, the whole, we didn't cross the border, the border crossed us thing?  :P
 
That's ridiculous. Only militant Mexican-Americans bother with stupid technicalities like that. Most (99.99%) could care less.
 
I see, sooooo, ..... are the militant Mexican-Americans the ones that want to kill all of the Puerto Ricans?
 
We, of course, have many Puerto Ricans and Mexican-Americans in the Marine Corps. It boggles me to no end to see how these guys fight sometimes.
 
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