Question about NO PRAYER album

Hey guys I'm back! What have you been....?

(in his best Thin Line Nicko voice) ...I fuckin' missed it!
 
Forostar said: "Natalie, one starts to think that you only enjoy the last four albums very much (plus perhaps Beast, SSOASS & SIT). ;-)
It depends on which songs are compared. When comparing my fifteen favourite individual songs from the nineties (not only Maiden's most hated but also Maiden's most ignored period) plus Dance of Death (which is -together with Virtual XI- my least favourite album)."

And Forostar, I start to think you don't listen to a word I say ;). I never said anything about comparing all 90's Maiden albums with DoD, I said The X Factor. And according to your list that makes 5 songs from The X Factor, leaving a lot of space in a 15 song list for other things.

I also think there is substantial confusion occurring here over comparing albums and individual songs. The X Factor is more consistent than DoD, but the individual songs such as Paschendale, No More Lies, Dance of Death, are better than my favorite individual songs from The X Factor and there are more of them, so I rank DoD higher as an album. But it isn't because its a consistent album. Had it been more consistent, it would rank higher as an album. BNW for me ranks very highly because it has great individual songs and its consistent. And again, I can't stress enough that this is my opinion, my taste. There is no right or wrong or "the song is too complex for me and that makes me silly".

And Forostar, even it were true that I only enjoyed the last four albums plus Beast, SSOASS and SIT, that still makes 7/15 which is still 46.6% of all Maiden releases.
But I'd like to take a second here and disspell that idea. First of all, when I compare Iron Maiden albums, I'm obviously comparing them with each other first and foremost. Since albums like BNW and SSOASS set the bar very high, other albums have a lot to live up to and often don't. But then when comparing Iron Maiden albums to other artists, its a different story because for the most part I would take any random Iron Maiden song over another random song by an artist in my library. And this is because individual Maiden songs are generally 4 or 5 star on average whereas other artists don't have such a high average for individual songs. And this is because I like Maiden's overall style, sound, lyrics, vocals, etc.

And because this thread is devoted to overlong posts, I'm now going to give a list of Iron Maiden albums and which songs from them have 5 stars, so you see my point, that I enjoy a lot of Maiden, but the albums on a whole might not rank as highly. It also has to be noted that some Maiden songs, if I could, I would give them 6 stars.

Iron Maiden (has the disadvantage of poor production)
Remember Tomorrow
Phantom of the Opera (6 stars)
Strange World

Killers (also suffers from poor production)
Killers

The Number of the Beast
Children of the Damned
The Number of the Beast
Run to the Hills
Hallowed Be Thy Name (6 stars)

Piece of Mind
Revelations
Flight of Icarus
The Trooper
To Tame A Land

Powerslave
Aces High
Powerslave
Rime of the Ancient Mariner (6 stars)

Somewhere in Time
Caught Somewhere in Time
Heaven Can Wait
Loneliness of the Long Distance Runner
Stranger in a Strange Land

Seventh Son of a Seventh Son (nothing lower than 4 stars)
Moonchild
Infinite Dreams (6)
Can I Play With Madness
The Evil That Men Do
Seventh Son of a Seventh Son

No Prayer For the Dying
No Prayer for the Dying

Fear of the Dark (a very consistent album though)
Fear of the Dark

The X Factor (has many good songs, but as an album is hard to get through because I need to be in the mood)
Sign of the Cross
Lord of the Flies
Fortunes of War
Judgement of Heaven
The Edge of Darkness
2 A.M.

Virtual XI (I love repetitive riffs when they're good, but even I think its a bit overdone on the whole on this album)
Futureal
Lightning Strikes Twice
The Clansman
When Two Worlds Collide
The Educated Fool
Don't Look to the Eyes of a Stranger
Como Estais Amigos

Brave New World (nothing lower than 4 stars)
The Wicker Man
Ghost of the Navigator
Brave New World
Blood Brothers (6 stars)
The Nomad
Out of the Silent Planet

Dance of Death
Rainmaker
No More Lies
Dance of Death (6 stars)
Paschendale (6 stars)
Journeyman

A Matter of Life and Death (suffers from a similar symptom to The X Factor, requires a certain mood for the most part)
Different World
These Colours Don't Run
The Longest Day
Out of the Shadows
The Reincarnation of Benjamin Breeg
For the Greater Good of God

The Final Frontier
Satellite 15...The Final Frontier
Isle of Avalon (6 stars)
Starblind (6 stars)
The Man Who Would be King
When the Wild Wind Blows
 
Natalie said:
And Forostar, I start to think you don't listen to a word I say ;). I never said anything about comparing all 90's Maiden albums with DoD, I said The X Factor. And according to your list that makes 5 songs from The X Factor, leaving a lot of space in a 15 song list for other things.
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I posted that list to show my disagreement on this statement (just comparing my taste with yours):

Natalie said:
And I will grant you that while the X Factor is more cohesive of an album than DoD, the gems of The X Factor are not as strong as the gems on DoD (come on, No More Lies, Dance of Death, Rainmaker, Paschenfuckingdale vs The Sign of the Cross and Lord of the Flies maybe?).
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Yes it also contains other songs but for me the best songs from TXF top the best ones from DOD. And then many other songs (TXF songs included) come before anything from DOD.
 
Natalie said:
I also think there is substantial confusion occurring here over comparing albums and individual songs. The X Factor is more consistent than DoD, but the individual songs such as Paschendale, No More Lies, Dance of Death, are better than my favorite individual songs from The X Factor and there are more of them, so I rank DoD higher as an album. But it isn't because its a consistent album. Had it been more consistent, it would rank higher as an album. BNW for me ranks very highly because it has great individual songs and its consistent. And again, I can't stress enough that this is my opinion, my taste. There is no right or wrong or "the song is too complex for me and that makes me silly".
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I approve of this post, and agree on all points.



And for clarity - just because No Prayer for The Dying is my least favorite Maiden album, doesn't mean it's not good. It just has too many "warts" (or "flaws" to my own ears) holding it back from being one of the great ones. And when I first heard it, I was actually let down because it wasn't a "great" album like I was expecting (Maiden was very reliable with making great albums). I wasn't happy with it being merely "good". In fact, I hated it for that. Yes, I honestly thought it was a "flaming crapwagon" upon first listen, but it certainly isn't nearly as bad as my first impression of it was. Maiden's sound and musical direction changed (again) with this album, and many people, including myself, didn't think it was a turn for the better.

Once again, my opinion. The heart likes what the heart likes, and this album is mostly an enjoyable listen, but it still fails to inspire me the way most of Maiden's catalog does.
 
I'm a little slower than you guys I can't follow the posts ! :D

@ Foro & Idol

Read my posts again. I mind the fillers, but if there are special songs, I can avoid some of the horrible ones as I'm talking about the overall album quality. No Prayer has no special songs (for me) has some fillers and two horrible (Hooks, Bring) songs. Dance of Death has more fillers than No Prayer and also has two horrible songs (Wildest, Gates), but it also has two masterpieces (PFD, Title) and two other special songs. (NML, Rainmaker) In that case, I consider DOD to be better than NPFTD.

Unlike No Prayer, FOTD has a special song (ATSS) but there are so many fillers and crap songs on that record that a special song cannot be enough to avoid them.

also @ Foro

As a progressive rock maniac, let alone being too complex, The Fugitive is too basic for me. Also about the repetitiveness, I wasn't talking about the songs themselves, I was talking about the whole album.

Childhood's End main melody, the part I've talked about on The Fugitive, Afraid to Shoot Strangers' main melody, Fear of the Dark's main melody are all so similar sounding.
 
You know I never thought in terms of raw % of albums, but thats a good point. People often go on about "Only like new maiden"/"Only like old maiden"/"Don't like 90's maiden" etc.. but each of those sections is 4+ albums.

I do agree TXF is a consistent album, but for me.. consistently low :P. I've actually had FOTD/TXF/DoD on back to back repeat today since posting here this morning... even now.. I can remember the odd chorus or melody from various songs but on the whole virtually nothing from FOTD/TXF is even in my mind. There may not even be a reason, but I just cannot think back even 3 hours and remember them. Even if at the time of listening I thought "this isn't that bad, still better than 90% of music out there" ... I can't remember the tracks once they are over. There's the odd very nice riff which I think stands out well.. before it blends into an otherwise forgettable track.

DoD on the other hand, is very memorable for me. Possibly because it's the first Maiden album I heard in its entirity, but I can remember how each track goes, and enjoy listening. There are so many unseen factors that can possibly affect peoples tastes though. For instance, I got into maiden the following way:

Eddie the Great - Borrowed from a friend
DoD - Borrowed from another friend
Visions of the Beast
BNW/NOTB - Bought together, first CD's I ever bought instead of given/borrowed.
--- Not sure exactly (I can check online orders to get a precise listing) but I think it goes ---
Live at Donnington
SiT/SSOASS/PoM/NPFTD

Many many albums from many artists for me suffer from "I like it while I'm listening to it, but once it's over I've forgotten already" syndrome. Others I remember, but miss the odd bit.. Wildest Dreams I can remember in its entirity but I often forget how 'gritty' that guitar tone is (which I really like btw) until I'm listening to it.

Back to TXF briefly (writing as I remember) - Blazes voice feels very very low in the mix to me, barely even notice he is singing at times. The comparisons of say LOTF/SOTC with Bruce's version I much prefer Bruce's as I just feel there's more "life" to them. 2AM is a track that actually grates me, and is not one I would say suffers from the above syndrome, I just really REALLY don't like it. Those opening lines feel so incredibly long, drawn out, and dreary. With FOTD.. Fear is the Key isn't even that bad at first but as it gets into the faster part and (at least for what I noticed, again.. its all blended into obscurity for me) repeats the lyrics it went downhill - sometimes the slightest thing can ruin a track for one person, but make it for another.
 
Flash, I am still not sure what you mean with avoiding in this context. Skipping? Ignoring? Putting your hands on your ears? :D

If The Fugitive is too basic, then many Maiden songs are too basic I'm afraid. As I've explained: The tempo is constant, but there's lots of other stuff changing. Can't hear the similarities you described. Stylewise perhaps, but not melody wise. If that's a big issue, I am sure this pops up way more often on other albums. I agree with Crimson: the songs on Fear of the Dark are very different from each other.
 
Crimson Idol said:
DoD on the other hand, is very memorable for me. Possibly because it's the first Maiden album I heard in its entirity, but I can remember how each track goes, and enjoy listening.
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Good point. I took the time for every Maiden album when it came out since 1992 (especially in the nineties I took more time because my taste wasn't as broad as it has become now), and I had lots of time for No Prayer and the eighties albums before TXF came out. It might have been a different venture compared to youngsters who digest lots of music in this age, in a shorter time.
 
So many factors could be involved, if you like an album you will of course listen to it more so you will remember it more so it builds the comparison even further.

I believe the last time my winamp was reset was june-ish last year, In that time I've listened to (in its entirity - going by lowest track count) DoD 46 times, FOTD 7, NPFTD 15, TXF 4 (mostly today tbh >.>). Now obviously I have listened to the albums more than that, but thats in the last 11 months and excluding iPod or when I've been away from home**. Ofc DoD has been listened to more because I enjoy it more, and so I remember it more (not due to freshness in mind, but repetitive listening helps things stick ofc), enjoy it more, listen more.. etc.

I do often revisit old albums I've not listened to so much, my listening habits in general are to put things on as back ground music - which does hurt those songs that are a bit more layered or with less 'catch' to the riffs (RTTH for instance is something you could pick up the chorus to whether paying attention or not) - but it also has a tendency to mean an album goes round a lot more times than intended before I remember to change it.

** Time away from home is minimum 2.5months, including the first month after I joined this forum. During that month I listened to almost nothing outside of Maiden, because of my general state of mind Maiden was one of the few things I could still take listening to without drastically altering my mood. All listening at that point was done on my iPod, and actually was the period that finally helped me connect to TFF. And I know for certain TXF/VXI were listened then. What I'm saying with this footnote is, take those numbers lightly, they're missing a lot ;) It's not like I don't appreciate them because I have only listened 4 times ;D

In contrast, I have listened to Crimson Idol: 361 times in its entirity in that 11 month (well, ~9) period.
 
Forostar said:
Good point. I took the time for every Maiden album when it came out since 1992 (especially in the nineties I took more time because my taste wasn't as broad as it has become now), and I had lots of time for No Prayer and the eighties albums before TXF came out. It might have been a different venture compared to youngsters who digest lots of music in this age, in a shorter time.
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Well this is another interesting discussion to have, how does the first Maiden experience influence your subsequent listening or likes/dislikes? I mean for me I know I have a bias towards BNW because it was the first album I heard in its entirety, just as I really love Death on the Road because it was the first Maiden album I bought. But I'm not sure where the blanket statement of "youngsters" digesting lots of music nowadays in a shorter amount of time is valid to this discussion. It seems to imply that just because you spent a lot of time with NPFTD in the 90's you somehow have some special insight into it that the rest of us don't have. I will grant you that spending more time with some music deepens your appreciation for it, but there has to be something about the music that merits 2nd, 3rd, 4th listens to begin with. For example: I remember this one summer I spent all of it basically listening to The X Factor on repeat. This was because the first time I heard it, I identified elements I liked or thought were intriguing, but it was too moody and dark and lyrically complex for me to properly appreciate. But I resolved to give it a very in depth listen that summer. And I did. And I appreciated it. I have never done anything like that with NPFTD or FoD because even when I do force myself to listen to the entire albums, I feel no compulsion to listen to them again all the way through. Not to mention for days and weeks on end like I did with The X Factor.
I will grant you I am a youngster and listen to a lot of music, but I like to think that doesn't mean I listen to any of it superficially. Artists, albums, and songs do, however, haveto pass a pretty stringent standard for me to like them.
 
Yeah, there are some albums that you just cannot wait to hear again, even if they don't "grab" you upon first listen. 'The X Factor' and Maiden's last 3 albums definitely fall into this category for me. Each listen was interesting enough that I wanted to hear it again, and that's how they grew on me ('Brave New World' grabbed me right away).

For whatever reason, 'No Prayer for the Dying' and 'Fear of the Dark', despite some good high points on each, and despite repeated listens, lack that "I really want to hear that again" quality. It's hard to tell if it is because of:
- an intentional shift in direction by the band that doesn't "click" with my tastes,
- if ideas and writing were suffereing because of other distractions,
- if the band, despite their best efforts, were showing signs of some kind of fatigue
- or if it's all in my head and I am just being a bad Iron Maiden fan
 
More to the point, 'catching up' on a catalogue like those newer (not nessecarily younger) listeners are you tend not to listen to each album as much, but when an album is first released you listen to it a lot. Certainly for me anyway, when I get a new album I put it on for days... whereas backtracking say the maiden catalogue I bought like 6 albums in one go so I was sharing time between them.

Maiden was also right at the start of my 'getting into music', so I hadn't quite developed a taste overall and was open to more things, as time goes on you find what you like and tend to focus more down a certain line rather than giving everything equal chance.
 
MaidenCanada said:
- or if it's all in my head and I am just being a bad Iron Maiden fan
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There's no such thing as being a bad Iron Maiden fan.:cool:
Unless all you do is listen to Fear of the Dark, in which case you're not really an Iron Maiden fan.:innocent:
 
Are you saying that you never finished these albums all the way though? Or just once (or twice)? (You didn't say this, but I am curious how often you played those records when you first tried them).
 
Who me? Over the space of 8 or so years that I've listened to Maiden I've gone through all albums many many times. I have no way of checking what the stats for NPFTD or FoD would be, but I would guesstimate somewhere in the 10-20 times all the way through area.
 
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