Question about NO PRAYER album

[CriedWhenBrucieLeft]

harrisdevot, I don't think Adrian is "the best" guitarist in Maiden either (I like Dave), but I think you're rubbishing his writing credentials when there is very little between himself & Steve. His work & contribution is overestimated in comparison to what? Just Steve? Come on, you're splitting hairs here.

I don't know the stats, but before The Flash comprehensively responded, I was thinking Adrian was probably the main songwriter besides Steve. It's hardly an overestimation to have him up there (with Steve). The only other contender (in the same bracket) is Bruce. Yes/no? And, as with all vocalists, I always have to ask myself, how much of the music did Bruce actually compose/write when he's credited as the sole creator? So he had the drum, bassline, and all those guitar parts worked out? I seriously doubt it. But, maybe someone can enlighten me on this issue. Point is, Steve may be the most creative force by sheer weight of numbers, but Adrian is certainly just behind him. Yes/no? And, people are entitled to think Adrian is on par with Steve, if his compositions are more to their liking. Yes/no?

I think (one of) The Flash's point(s) is fairly simple though; unless I misinterpret. In terms of writing: yes, no Steve, no IM; think that's obvious. But no Adrian, & crap 90's IM, and IM nothing like today's IM. (Or perhaps no IM at all today?) I don't know if that's true or not --but you can certainly argue that without Adrian IM would be a very different sounding band today. And not necessarily a better one. So, in that repect, he's very influential.

 

[CriedWhenBrucieLeft]

Ian: basically agree. Although, I'm not sure if the 00's stuff (except AMoLaD) are really that good. FotD & NPftD really are, I feel, better than people give them credit for. Although they aren't up there with the 80's material.

 

[The Flash]

@ CWBL

Composing is not necessarily writing all the material on the song. It's all about the main melody. Take Powerslave, which was written by Bruce on his own, as an example. Bruce wrote the riffs and the main melody of that song also the lyrics, so that makes him the sole songwriter for that song. Bassline is provided by Steve, drums are by Nicko, solos are from Adrian and Dave. So you don't have to compose all the material to be the sole songwriter on a song.

 

[CriedWhenBrucieLeft]

I sort of disagree...
(Although I appreciate this is the way Maiden song credit.)

In this example, how do you (genuine query here) think Bruce approached the band with the riff? Lyrics: okay, he had them written down, or in his head. Melody: again, this is linked to the lyrics (possibly) & one could sing it. Riff? Did Bruce write it down, sing it out, play it on the guitar? I'm really curious as to how you think this creative process unfolded.

You see, to me, if Bruce hadn't communicated his ideas about Powerslave to the guys in IM (circa 1984), then the track would probably, in some respects, have sounded quite different. Did Bruce write that lovely intrumental part in the middle? If he didn't, then clearly a different group of musicians would have formed a very different track around Bruce's original creative entity. Therefore, in my opinion, Iron Maiden (not Bruce Dickinson alone) wrote most of the music in that track. If that's what happened...

 

[Crimson Idol]

Whilst I understand where you're coming from (and agree) - that various parts of a track are filled in by musicians and the general melody/parts are what the credit is for, and certainly a different group of musicians would've created a different track from the same idea... Bruce does also play guitar to a reasonable degree, and so likley can/does create more of the song structure than you would expect.

He wrote Powerslave iirc whilst listening back to Revelations and thinking 'how can I improve this?'.

 

[harrisdevot]

That credit stuff is really interesting. Obviously, the guy credited is the one who had the main riffs, the melody for the vocals and the structure of the song. Bruce, who admits beeing a poor guitar player, obviously didn't write every single note in the song Powerslave, Dave and Adrian are responsible for the solos and Steve for the lovely bassline. But Steve himself has stated that the others brought little ideas for his songs, for instance Adrian came with some news things for Wrathchild and Another Life. Steve again said that if he was credited for Die with your boots on, it's bescause he wrote the bridge after the solo. I assume there's one aspect that has gained great importance in recent Maiden, it's the royalty question. I think that, considering what Bruce said when leaning Maiden about the absence of democracy within the band and Steve xriting most of the songs, producing the albums and even recording them at home, there was some kind of negotation when he was back. But I may be completly wrong.
And even Steve has to take care about the ego of the others. I think this was really important for Bruce to pen, on his own, two songs on Powerslave, same thing with Adrian on SIT, while the bassline of both of his three songs gives an important contribution to their effect and should perharps get recognition in the credits.

 

[jalvarez82]

So, I gave 'No Prayer' another go today (original, not remastered). I sat down and gave every song a good listen...and I've come to the conclusion that there is only one song on the album that I enjoy listening to; "Fates Warning". God I love Dave Murray compositions.

 

[averycopeland]

I recently read the "Run To The Hills" autobiography
and it skips explaining any reasons for the sudden turnaround in Steve's approach.

I suppose if Adrian was already showing disinterest in metal songwriting...
and if Bruce was becoming a bit bored with the "expected" format of Maiden music...

then that left Steve to come up with the bulk of the album's material
and maybe he was just no longer inspired to compose in a bombastic style that was becoming very unfashionable for that time.


Oddly enough, you'd think that Adrian would've appreciated the more straightforward Hard Rock style of this material...
since he kinda followed a similar streamlined approach for his solo projects.

 

[The Flash]

@ averycopeland

Not really. Adrian would've only appreciated the band to continue experimenting and heading towards an even more progressive style. Solo projects are a total different story.

 

[CriedWhenBrucieLeft]

The only thing I'd add is: got to stop saying Dave & Adrian "just did the solos" (I paraphrase). If Bruce didn't have any of the riffs worked out (on guitar; or in any shape recognisable as the song as recorded) then Dave/Adrian/Steve did all the guitar parts as well; including on any other track similarly written. To me, royalties aside, that's co-writing.

 

[The Flash]

The only thing I'd add is: got to stop saying Dave & Adrian "just did the solos" (I paraphrase). If Bruce didn't have any of the riffs worked out (on guitar; or in any shape recognisable as the song as recorded) then Dave/Adrian/Steve did all the guitar parts as well; including on any other track similarly written. To me, royalties aside, that's co-writing.

Bruce wrote the main riffs of Powerslave on guitar, that's a fact. Why else he would be credited as the sole songwriter on the song ?

Powerslave's structure is consisted of 14 parts :

1. Intro, also the main riff (Written by Bruce Dickinson)
2. Second riff, which leads to the chorus (Written by Bruce Dickinson)
3. Chorus backing riff (Written by Bruce Dickinson)
4. Main riff
5. Second riff, which leads to the chorus once again
6. Chorus backing riff
7. Middle section - 1st Solo (The middle section is consisted of two guitar solos, guitar solos don't get credited because they're not a part of the structure)
8. Middle section - 2nd Solo (Backing riff written by Bruce Dickinson)
9. Bridge - Harmony (written by Bruce Dickinson)
10. Middle section - 3rd solo (Backing riff on the second solo repeated)
11. Main riff
12. Second riff, which leads to the chorus for the third time
13. Chorus backing riff
14. Outro (Written by Bruce Dickinson)

1st Solo : Dave Murray
2nd Solo : Adrian Smith
3rd Solo : Dave Murray

Bassline by Steve Harris, drums by Nicko McBrain, vocal melodies by Bruce Dickinson. All these elements don't get credited on any song.

Lyrics by Bruce Dickinson, which is also a credit but since it's the same person who wrote the song, Powerslave turns out to be a "Bruce-on-his-own" song. The middle section of the song is pretty long and is a big part of the quality of the song, but in terms of credits, it's no different than a 10 second solo.

 

[Forostar]

Adrian wasn't pushed out, he left after seeing the direction the band was heading to. I've always said this and I'll always will : Adrian is the most creative member of Iron Maiden, has always been. He's the most open one to experiments and progressiveness

In 1989/1990, Adrian was not open towards the more aggressive sound of the songs that were written for No Prayer. More importantly, he had hardly written anything himself when the band met again after they had their writing session.

Apart from The Wicker Man and Paschendale (only decent song per album; a laughable amount), it took ages before he took the writing pen up seriously and produced something of the quality of his 1980s contributions. Adrian might be the most important songwriter at this point. But he had ups and downs. His songwriting on Bruce's albums were also bleak contributions compared to the stuff Roy Z came up with.

Tell me what you want to tell, but I think "written by only Steve" creative period has ended in 1988. He has written some nice songs since then (Afraid to Shoot Strangers, Sign of the Cross, No More Lies to name a few) but these songs aren't surprising anymore.

Blood on the World's Hands was his last superb one if you ask me. I am also a big fan of Judgement in Heaven (both 1995).

Check the iron maiden video topic: You'll see a video I just posted in which Steve states that for No Prayer the writing process was a natural thing, nothing was decided in advance (direction).

 

[CriedWhenBrucieLeft]

The Flash: if he wrote all those parts, then fair enough.

Personally I find the idea (& clearly I'm not appreciating Bruce's skill as a guitarist here) of Bruce composing a two (probably three) part guitar harmony (your "bridge") as unlikely. The whole intrumental section (from ~2:30 to about 4:50), for me, literally makes this song. Strip this away, and you have very little left & a pretty unremarkable song. My point is (in response to your "Why else he would be credited as the sole songwriter on the song?"; & "All these elements don't get credited on any song"), it is simply songwriting crediting convention that makes/names Bruce as sole songwriter. Breaking it down only highlights (lyrics aside; I'm talking about the music here) that Bruce's contribution is only part of the song (--& quite a small part I think). But if it's fact, that he wrote all that, then, as I said, fair enough.

 

[Natalie]

I think No Prayer is an album symptomatic of a band thats running out of gas and who's members hearts aren't really in the project any more. Now, you can speculate whether thats because Seventh Son wasn't a commercial success in America (although did Maiden ever really care about that?), or whether it was because metal was on its way out in the 90's, or whether it was because they had been touring and putting out albums on such a relentless, never-ending cycle...whatever the ultimate reason I think No Prayer just ends up sounding like there were both creative problems in the band and other problems as well. But thankfully it all got patched up and Iron Maiden "came back" (although they'd never really gone away) to produce the awesome stuff that they have in the 00's.

 

[harrisdevot]

To The Flash. I'm forced to ask you : are you Smith's twin brother, ou are you Smith himself ? Or maybe you're Dickinson? Your response to averycopeland is stunning, as is your "analysis" of the writing structure of Powerslave. Where do you get all this from ? Adrian Smith is not a master of experimentation, as his personal efforts (lack of effort I would rather say) suggest. The man has always been the most straightforward. It's the combination of his skills and Steve's that made him explore new grounds. If the man was a kind of progressive addict, which is personal musical tastes prove he is not, do you really think he would have done his last solo record ? As for the credits, I'm sure (but cannot prove) that the financial aspect is very very important.

 

[Forostar]

I think No Prayer is an album symptomatic of a band thats running out of gas and who's members hearts aren't really in the project any more. Now, you can speculate whether thats because Seventh Son wasn't a commercial success in America (although did Maiden ever really care about that?), or whether it was because metal was on its way out in the 90's, or whether it was because they had been touring and putting out albums on such a relentless, never-ending cycle...whatever the ultimate reason I think No Prayer just ends up sounding like there were both creative problems in the band and other problems as well. But thankfully it all got patched up and Iron Maiden "came back" (although they'd never really gone away) to produce the awesome stuff that they have in the 00's.

Your analysis of the never ending cycle is not correct. The band took a break in 1989. It was their first break in their career. They came back and this was the result: a change.

Since I feel people are ignoring/missing the video in the other topic, and since it´s dead on topic here (and since the band explains what I am trying to say), I hope you people would listen to what the band has to say themselves:

1990: Maiden talk about the writing of No Prayer for the Dying, enter Janick / preparation tour. Steve says the writing process was a natural thing, nothing was decided in advance (direction). Bruce says the break (gap!) they had, gave them some more enthusiasm. Things seemed a lot fresher. "You go straight for the throat".

No Prayer was Maiden's most live sounding record. It sounds raw, aggressive and very fresh to me. Lots of good ideas, strong melodies and bass playing. Very creative, I'd say. Less complex, perhaps, and more aggressive, but certainly creative.

 

[The Flash]

If the man was a kind of progressive addict, which is personal musical tastes prove he is not, do you really think he would have done his last solo record ?

The hell ? Awoken Broken is a full progressive album even avant-garde at times.

Adrian loved writing straight-forward songs, that's true, but he also loved progressive playing, the latter has been the most effective one since Reunion.

As for the Powerslave analysis thing, I'm pretty familiar with the ways the songs are built and how the credit thing goes. No way it's different than the way I wrote. It's always like that. Though there are some bands that cheat on the credits, The Beatles is the most common example of it.

 

[harrisdevot]

Perfectly agree with Forostar on that matter. And I cannot understand why the 90's are considered such a low in Maiden's carrer. Is Factor X a bad album ? Come on, this is a masterpiece, and something really new. Just compare it to Dance of Death and ask which one is the best. There are some mediocre or bad songs in the 90's albums, but the ones from the 80's are not perfect. There is a kind of re-writing of Maiden story and a "a posteriori" reconstruction. One instance to get things cleared : when Live after Death was released, many fans in Europe (and myself) were disappointed, because of the sound, the quality of the vocals, except for the fourth side (the one recorded at the Hammersmith) which is so superior. Nowadays, everyone seems to consider LAD a real masterpiece. Maiden is such a great band, with such a coherence, that each album has to be considered not only individually, but also as a part of a whole. In this approach, NPftD and the Blaze years make sense.

 

[Crimson Idol]

And I cannot understand why the 90's are considered such a low in Maiden's carrer.

It's called "taste" and "difference of opinion". Sorry if that comes across aggressive but.. it's the truth.

Is Factor X a bad album ? Come on, this is a masterpiece, and something really new. Just compare it to Dance of Death and ask which one is the best.

Again, taste. DoD is one of my favourite Maiden albums... whereas the X Factor I find so mind numbingly dull after the first 3 tracks that I simply cannot listen to it. I have listened to NPftD pretty recently, but I just cannot listen to XFactor.


There are quotes from Steve in the book I have, when he talks about SSOASS.. and he starts by saying "I just don't get why America won't accept us... we've tried X, they didn't like it, we've tried Y, they didn't like it." And has a short rant about how the American's just will not accept Maiden... but then he ends by going "F**k em". So, as far as I see, he was a) no matter how much he 'didnt care', wanting to get a big record in the US. b) Willing to try changing the sound to achieve that. They hadn't succeeded with the more keyboard orientated SSOASS, so (whether pre-meditated or decided on-spot during recording) he pulled it back. They may say that none of it was thought of before hand, and by all means they may mean none of the songs were originally thought of as stripped down. But Steve made the decision to use the Rolling Stones mobile studio which was vastly out of date... so it is also quite possible that whether pre-meditated or not, the stripped down sound came because of the limitations of the equipment. Naturally ofc they could still use keyboards etc, I just mean the tone of the record.

Either way, Steve wanted some progress in America and was changing direction to achieve this each time... it is possible he already had an intent to change direction but didn't decide what direction until they hit the studio - in which case the interview Foro posted is not exactly false information, yet it still allows the statement that Steve chose to pull it back to be true.

What is certainly fact though, is comercially NPFTD is one of the low points. (In before someone mentions blaze years were lower.. I said ONE OF)

 

[Forostar]

Perfectly agree with Forostar on that matter. And I cannot understand why the 90's are considered such a low in Maiden's carrer. Is Factor X a bad album ? Come on, this is a masterpiece, and something really new. Just compare it to Dance of Death and ask which one is the best. There are some mediocre or bad songs in the 90's albums, but the ones from the 80's are not perfect. There is a kind of re-writing of Maiden story and a "a posteriori" reconstruction. One instance to get things cleared : when Live after Death was released, many fans in Europe (and myself) were disappointed, because of the sound, the quality of the vocals, except for the fourth side (the one recorded at the Hammersmith) which is so superior. Nowadays, everyone seems to consider LAD a real masterpiece. Maiden is such a great band, with such a coherence, that each album has to be considered not only individually, but also as a part of a whole. In this approach, NPftD and the Blaze years make sense.

I am glad that I like those albums.
@Crimson: which book is it?