Question about NO PRAYER album

Perhaps some people don't want to describe their own taste, or maybe they even can't(?)

It's usually difficult to describe what makes a particular song more 'boring' than another. Some things are pleasing to the ears without any logical reason, others are not. On every album previous to No Prayer, Iron Maiden had some songs that weren't bad, but were definitely not as good as the others for whatever reason (songs like 'Quest for Fire', 'Big Orra', etc.). You know, the songs that people call "filler" on a great album. Anyway, No Prayer for the Dying had that feel for me for most of its songs. There are lots of great guitar riffs and melodies that I felt were spoiled by a glut of minor faults. The lyrics in the choruses sounded wimpy or laughable on some songs (Tailgunner, The Assassin, Bring Your Daughter...), the lyrics were laughable in some songs ("A volcano erupts and sweeps your town away" is one example), Bruce's "raspy" voice *almost* ruins the title track for me (great song, though), and it lacks a good "epic" song (Mother Russia coming close). The album just had too many negatives going for it, and they still stand out for me today when I give it another listen. The Fear of the Dark album had many of the same problems (problems to me, anyway), but are balanced out by more excellent songs, and was an improvement, but still didn't connect with me very well.

Don't call me a "sheep" for not personally connecting with albums (for whatever the reasons) that many others don't either.
 
The lyrics in the choruses sounded wimpy or laughable on some songs (Tailgunner, The Assassin, Bring Your Daughter...), the lyrics were laughable in some songs ("A volcano erupts and sweeps your town away" is one example)

Trivial, minor issues in my eyes. How important compared to a good beat, some great energetic playing and fresh, original music with good melodies. Seriously: there are things I dislike in Maiden. For me the following can be seriously annoying: unoriginality (recycling older material), repetitiveness or plain bad singing (e.g. Blaze on the end of When Two Worlds Collide). Non (or hardly any) of it on this album. By the way: It's "A volcano erupts and sweeps a town away". Your town is indeed somewhat more ridiculous but you made that up yourself.

Bruce's "raspy" voice *almost* ruins the title track for me (great song, though)

This is the most heard complaint. Bruce's voice. I don't get it: I feel it fits to the roughness of the music.

and it lacks a good "epic" song (Mother Russia coming close).

You named it. An excellent epic end of the album.

The album just had too many negatives going for it, and they still stand out for me today when I give it another listen.

I am glad I appreciate the good things about the album.
 
@ harrisdevot

I'm not one of those "I hate 90's Maiden" guys. I consider The X Factor as a masterpiece, Virtual XI as a good album, No Prayer for the Dying as average. However I find Fear of the Dark awful. Afraid to Shoot Strangers, title track, Childhood's End and Judas Be My Guide are good, Be Quick or Be Dead is nice, others are full of crap.

I can't stand too many fillers on albums. One is fine, two is fine, even three is fine if the quality of others is high. But four or more isn't bearable. Fear of the Dark is almost full of fillers.

No Prayer for the Dying, on the other hand, isn't just consisted of fillers. It just lacks special songs. Mother Russia, Run Silent Run Deep, Public Enema Number One, Fates Warning those are very good songs. But to avoid the awful songs on the album (Hooks in You, Bring Your Daughter to the Slaughter) there must be a special song. For me, there isn't one. And that's why No Prayer is average in Maiden standards.
 
@ The Flash,

Thanks for explaining your position. My remarks were not directed to you precisely, and my main concern is that the 90s tend to be considered now by most fans (who didn't even know Maiden at the time) as a sad parenthesis beetween Adrian/Bruce departure, and their coming back into the band. Beeing a Maiden fan since 82, I clearly remember not having any "decline" thoughts during the 90s. I was fully into it, and I did welcome all the albums. I hated some songs (I agree with you about Hooks in You and Bring your Daughter, songs that could have been written by AC/DC), but really loved some. My only concern was the lapse of time beetween records, and I now realize my criticism was harsh, as the rythm of the 80s was definitely unsustainable on a long term, and as the albums were a lot longer in the 90s (which can explain some of the lows).
 
Somewhat off-topic...
but here is my consolidated album, aptly titled
"The Fear Of No Dark Prayer For The Dying":

1. Fates Warning
2. Be Quick Or Be Dead
3. Wasting Love
4. Mother Russia
5. Public Enema Number One

6. No Prayer for the Dying
7. Run Silent Run Deep
8. Bring Your Daughter to the Slaughter
9. Fear of the Dark
10. Judas Be My Guide

I left off much of the alleged AC/DC-leaning material
and this seems to have more of a traditional (but not repetitive) Maiden feel.
At least I think so anyway. :innocent:

So if you've been ignoring the original albums for years,
try this approach and maybe you'll find a new appreciation.
 
Why consider The Fugitive as filler or full of crap? How much more are we going to exaggerate?

Such a drive. Great "man on the run" song with catchy riffs and sublime instrumentation: excellent build-up and bright solos (an exceptionally well prepared solo by Janick!). The drums are simple and steady but the bass is doing all kinds of patterns. Lots of stuff going on, with more different parts than in many other songs -including longer ones- Maiden made afterwards. I think this is really a nice and original song when you are interested in the musical ventures of the band.
 
The Flash: I think it's clear how bands (inc. IM) credit songwriting; we don't need this explained to us. Just trying to make the point that with IM (as with many other bands) the song/music, in my opinion, is really made by the band (most of them); & not by the songwriter. Clearly, someone like Steve probably comes to the table with a pretty complete composition; I doubt very much anyone else does.

Forostar: your analysis of events surrounding NPftD are bang one. Although, I think in some ways XF sounds even more "live" than NPftD --or perhaps just less polished! (EDIT: And The Fugitive is a great track --like quite a bit of the early 90's material.)

harrisdevot: I agree with most of what you say. NPftD is a great album. DoD really isn't. And most fans, myself included, have no idea how early material was received --as we weren't there.
 
Why do some of the posters contend that SSOASS wasn't a success in America? It was certified platinum which means it sold at least 1 million copies so just what do you consider to be a success? As far as NPFTD goes, I hate the production of it and some of the material is weak, but it's a HELL of a lot better than FOTD or Virtual XI
 
Perfectly agree with Forostar on that matter. And I cannot understand why the 90's are considered such a low in Maiden's carrer. Is Factor X a bad album ? Come on, this is a masterpiece, and something really new. Just compare it to Dance of Death and ask which one is the best. There are some mediocre or bad songs in the 90's albums, but the ones from the 80's are not perfect. There is a kind of re-writing of Maiden story and a "a posteriori" reconstruction. One instance to get things cleared : when Live after Death was released, many fans in Europe (and myself) were disappointed, because of the sound, the quality of the vocals, except for the fourth side (the one recorded at the Hammersmith) which is so superior. Nowadays, everyone seems to consider LAD a real masterpiece. Maiden is such a great band, with such a coherence, that each album has to be considered not only individually, but also as a part of a whole. In this approach, NPftD and the Blaze years make sense.

Hold the phone. I never said I don't think No Prayer and the Blaze years make sense. In fact I am certain that without those albums, Maiden wouldn't be where they are now. I for one really appreciate Virtual XI and The X Factor (and have said so elsewhere). But at the same time I think No Prayer is not one of their stronger albums and sounds a bit lost, like the band is searching for some new identity by returning to a "rawer" sound, and it fails (in my opinion). I was merely speculating on why this might be, and if its not because the band was burned out then it must be because of some other reason.
I will also stick my neck out here and say that while Virtual XI and The X Factor are good albums, they are lacking in certain departments which are made up for (I think) in later albums. For example, The X Factor is dark and somewhat muffled-sounding overall, missing some of that proper epic feel we've grown accustomed to hear from Maiden (aside from Sign of the Cross). Virtual XI's songs suffer from repetitiveness.
As far as the 80's go also: I'm not a big fan generally. Piece of Mind is one of their weakest albums imo, as is Powerslave (apart from a few gems, basically the title track and Rime). Iron Maiden and Killers can more or less be ignored as well.
So I am not one of those people that glorify 80's Maiden and demonize Blaze. And I will grant you that while the X Factor is more cohesive of an album than DoD, the gems of The X Factor are not as strong as the gems on DoD (come on, No More Lies, Dance of Death, Rainmaker, Paschenfuckingdale vs The Sign of the Cross and Lord of the Flies maybe?).
 
Natalie, one starts to think that you only enjoy the last four albums very much (plus perhaps Beast, SSOASS & SIT). ;-)

And I will grant you that while the X Factor is more cohesive of an album than DoD, the gems of The X Factor are not as strong as the gems on DoD (come on, No More Lies, Dance of Death, Rainmaker, Paschenfuckingdale vs The Sign of the Cross and Lord of the Flies maybe?).

It depends on which songs are compared. When comparing my fifteen favourite individual songs from the nineties (not only Maiden's most hated but also Maiden's most ignored period) plus Dance of Death (which is -together with Virtual XI- my least favourite album), I'd rank them in this order:

1- The Unbeliever
2- Mother Russia
3- Afraid to Shoot Strangers
4- Blood on the World's Hands
5- Dance of Death
6- Run Silent Run Deep
7- Paschendale
8- The Fugitive
9- Fates Warning
10- Judgement of Heaven
11- Public Enema Number One
12- Lightning Strikes Twice
13- Childhood's End
14- Sign of the Cross
15- Fortunes of War

Hardly any Dance of Death. Rainmaker is probably the next but I'm not sure if I'd like it better than Lord of the Flies.

No More Lies is not the worst, but certainly the most predictable and unimaginative song Maiden ever did. The Angel and the Gambler has a more surprising build-up.
- - - - - - -

Dramatis Personae
J: Janick
D: Dave
B: Bruce
A: Adrian
N: Nicko
S: Steve

Notting Hill, London... recordings of Dance of Death, Maiden’s thirteenth studio album…

A, D, J, N and B are having a beer in the bar.

J: Where is Steve?
D: He has it again.
B: What?
D: It is that time again.
A: Huh? What do you mean, Dave?
N: What hoooo! Hahaha!
B (slightly annoyed): Come on Nicko, lay it off for a minute will ya?
A: Yeah, Nicko, stop it, I don’t like this, I want to know what’s going on.
D: Steve is busy in the studio. It will take hours before we see him.
J: Huh… we have done 10 songs.
D: Yes, but he told me has some kind of tradition. On every album he wants to do at least one song by himself.

A sighs, with a worried look on his face.
B orders another beer, and looks kind of agitated.

N: Don’t worry guys, I thought we had agreed that we wouldn’t be bothered by this kind of stuff.
J: Yeah. Maybe it’ll be good!
A: Yeah. Maybe.

The guys decide to drink a few more beers and go to bed.
Next morning, they gather at the breakfast table.

A: Still no Steve.
B: I’ve had it, let’s go to him.
D: Guys ….
N: Let them, Dave, we’ll go with them. Come on, Jan.
J: I am curious too.

With firm footsteps they go to the recording room, finding S with a ghastly face.
He curses the others with the eye.

S: Four times fifty different chord schemes, and I still have no clue what to do.
With heavy fingers, lifeless fingers, my ideas wished they’d die.

S shakes his head, turns his white and sweaty face to D.

S: Dave, I told you to keep them away from me. I don’t want to be interrupted when I am wearing my albatr… eh bass around my neck!
J: So what do you have?
S, while strumming his bass: I only have this freakin’ chord scheme.
A: Hey, that sounds familiar. It reminds me of … ouch!!

Nicko takes his elbow out of Adrian’s ribs.

D: Let me see, if you change this and that a bit, then you have a few variations.
He plays it on his own guitar. S’s face changes dramatically.

S: Wow! That’s what I needed.
B: It still sounds quite the same to me.

S whistles the melodies D just came up with.

S: I need an intro too.
D: No problem, we’ll use your scheme and my variations again. We can use exactly the same chord progression, it will be the same as the couplets. We’ll just freak around with some calm guitars, like we always do. Right Adrian?

A (happy with Paschendale and not in the mood for discussion): Alright.
N: Janick?
J: I guess I will play the last solo again. But OK, you two guys work something out.
S: Alright Dave, come on. The rest: OUT!
N: Can I stay Steve?
S: OK.

Bruce, Janick and Adrian leave, slightly worried about the result.

After an hour they hear loud noise coming from the recording room. They head back to discover that S is engaged in a fistfight with D. N tries to keep them away from each other, catching some blows –with lots of tempo and rhythm changes- in the process.

B: What the fuck is going on here?
D after taking a deep breath: Look… I have helped you with this song Steve, so it’d be fair if I would get a co-credit. If I hadn’t helped you, you still would have this single bloody chord scheme!
S: No. I want to have one song by myself. That’s my tradition.
D: That’s not fair! People will say it’s not true when I tell them I contributed.

The face of S reddens.

S: We won’t tell anyone. This song is mine! When people ask, you guys are bound to tell this story, this tale, wherever you go. To teach this word by my own example. That we must love all things that I made.

J looks puzzled.

B: Do you have lyrics of your own, Steve?
S after some hesitation: Well, that was one other thing I’d like to….
D interrupts: I don’t care. I don’t want this crap anymore. I can’t stand it anymore!
S: What can’t you stand anymore?
D: No more!
S: No more what?
D: No more lies!
 
Why consider The Fugitive as filler or full of crap? How much more are we going to exaggerate?

Such a drive. Great "man on the run" song with catchy riffs and sublime instrumentation: excellent build-up and bright solos (an exceptionally well prepared solo by Janick!). The drums are simple and steady but the bass is doing all kinds of patterns. Lots of stuff going on, with more different parts than in many other songs -including longer ones- Maiden made afterwards. I think this is really a nice and original song when you are interested in the musical ventures of the band.

The intro feels disconnected, the melody part which starts around :48 can be heard on almost every Fear of the Dark song. (Chord progression) Fear of the Dark's repetitiveness is disgusting. The vocals on the song are nice, except for the horrific chorus. First solo is nice but doesn't fit to the song, it's the same case for the second solo, too. There aren't lots of stuff like you say, almost the whole structure is based on the same chord progression.

I simply CAN'T listen to Fear of the Dark without skipping parts. The songs are too similar and most of them are crap.

By the way Dance of Death > No Prayer for the Dying and that's not even a contest for me. DOD has two masterpieces while NPFTD has none, the great songs on DOD are better than the great songs on NPFTD. DOD has more fillers but like I said before about No Prayer, the special songs help to avoid the bad songs on the album.

@ CriedWhenBrucieLeft

The explanation about credits was to avoid all kinds of doubts about the subject. I know you know how it goes.
 
You don't mind fillers on Dance of Death and you do mind fillers (which you call crap) on nineties albums. I smell some severe bias here.

Still, even if I am trying to take your post seriously, I must stress that I think your analysis is incorrect, or else it shows that certain music goes beyond the borders --> Solos don't fit? Intro disconnected? --> Is this song too complex for you?

Also: The songs are not that similar on Fear of the Dark. You may not like them but they are different from each other. And the song itself is much less repetitive or predictable than e.g. Face in the Sand or No More Lies.

Back to The Fugitive. Seriously, if you complain about repetitiveness (amazing: the song is full of changes) one would think you would appreciate a solo in a part that not only sounds but is different, or that it is played in a different chord scheme (the instrumental part contains lots of changes and different chords). Do you want variation or not? Maybe you prefer the solo parts in No More Lies in which the never ending chord schemes are copies of other parts in the song. The intro in The Fugitive also shows freshness and brings variation. A prog rock fan can be used to the most absurd changes. Maiden did this more often, and there were no laws or rules. This certainly worked fine hear as well. A very rich song with lots of subtle additions. Also acoustic (they didn't do that since 1981).

Sorry that I am buggering so much about this song but I don't like when people change facts. The Fugitive contains many chords, many changes. One of the prime examples -to be honest I can't mention another one at this second- that has about this length, and in which so many things are going on. Lots of different parts.

Are you telling me that you are avoiding bad songs? It will be hard to give them time to grow then. Does that mean that you also skip songs on Dance of Death? That could mean that you don't like Dance of Death as an album at all. Liking two masterpieces and skipping lesser songs is fine, but then it means you like a couple of songs and you don't care for the album (or else you wouldn't skip).
 
Foro: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Iron-Maiden...3613/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1336562880&sr=8-1

I tend not to read very often, due to this discussion I've gone back to NPFTD chapter a few times these last few days - noticed a part where the band state that the tour was one of their favourites. The reason being they all thought that SSOASS went over the top, and the stage show was out of control and taking more attention than the band/music, so the barebones aspect of NPFTD was more enjoyable. Which could be another reason they stripped the sound back. Who knows, maybe they went into the studio to begin the album and the topic of the previous tour/album came up and someone said "It's getting out of hand...". So wasn't pre-meditated in terms of someone planned the change in advance, but it certainly wasn't an "accident" that the album ended that way (That's a better description of what I've been trying to say for a few posts lol).

I used to do almost only mixes, these days I do almost only full album's, Dance of Death is right up at the top end of my maiden list, whilst XFactor, NPFTD, FOTD, VirtualXI are all in the bottom end. Like Nat I do think PoM is overrated but I would still rank it above all of those :P

Whilst Flash says he prefers DoD to NPFTD but think it has more filler.. I on the other hand would barely call any of it "filler", and am quite happy to listen to all tracks. Sure if mixing a playlist I'll take the best ones, but even I will take. Dance of Death, Paschendale, Face in the Sand, Age of Innocence, Journeyman and depending on how long the playlist I'm making is, often also Rainmaker, No More Lies, Montsegur. Even whats left I still enjoy listening to. But if I was to give the same treatment to the 90's material, I'd struggle to pick 3 from each album. If I had to pick 3 from NPFTD it'd be Run Silent Run Deep, Holy Smoke, Tailgunner and thats at a push, I know most dislike Holy Smoke but I actually enjoy it. One of the first things I owned by Maiden was the Visions of the Beast DVD and so Tailgunner/Holy Smoke were actually two of the songs that drew me to them... the rest of the album just never caught for me, at all.

Fear of the Dark's problem as an album is that it varies TOO much and jumps about too quickly, it doesn't flow. There's some good tracks on there and many varied styles but even in the first half it changes dramatically more than once.

BTW:
I must stress that I think your analysis is incorrect, or else it shows that certain music goes beyond your borders --> Solos don't fit? Intro disconnected? --> Is this song too complex for you?
everyone has a different opinion/taste remember ;) Many songs to me feel like the Solo's don't fit (SSOASS is a major one for me) doesn't mean the song is too complex or anything... just some people prefer smooth transitions or other such differences whereas others aren't so 'picky'. ;)

That said, I'll listen to FOTD again today.. It's been a week since it was last on and I already can't remember half of it outside of choruses.

Lastly: @maidenn.c.indiana - I have no idea how successful SSOASS was in America as I never looked at the sales figures, STEVE on the other hand did think it was unsuccessful. Even though they had that record sold out streak at long beach in 85, he still didn't think the states "got them".
Quote from book:
It seemed however, that America was slow to react to the record and indeed in some quarters Seventh Son... recieved a 'thumbs down'. Steve Harris was incredulous; "I thought it was the best album we did since Piece of Mind. I loved it because it was more progressive. I thought the keyboards fitted in brilliantly, because that's the influences I grew up with." It was the inclusion of synthesisers that turned the heads of many American fans, the suggestion being that Maiden had gone soft. "I was so pissed off with the Americans", ranted the bassist. "They didn't really seem to accept it. Somewhere in time had done far better. But you can't just go by album sales: they might buy the album and not like it, and maybe some of the Americans that bought Somewhere in Time didn't like it and so didn't buy the next album. I don't know. Who knows what the reason was, but it didn't do as well in America and I just couldn't understand it".

Thought Harris was clearly upfront with his dissapointment, the sales were more of a blip than a serious setback Where Somewhere in Time had sold to two million American buyers, the '88 follow up dropped to 1.2 million units - still enough to see Maiden pick up their sixth platinum album in a row. Though Steve was unsuprisingly pleased with another million-plus selling record, his annoyance stemmed more from the implication that the American fans just didn't seem to 'get it'. As he summed up; "Everyone said afterwards it was a very european sounding album. To me it's just a Maiden-sounding album. And I thought, 'Well, if you don't like it, bollocks. I don't care!' There is no other way of looking at it. I remember thinking, 'Fucking Americans, they just don't fucking understand us'".
 
I still think the whole "played live" has too much influence here. A lot of people seem to admit that DoD (the track) didn't quite click until they heard it live i.e. it's better live. I'd put some of BNW's tracks in that bracket too e.g. until I heard RiR I didn't think much of Wicker Man. WtWWB has also be commented on more recently. Point is, come Donnington '92 --very little of NPfTD survived. And now: no tracks live at all. I just think neglected/underrated (or just plain not rated) album tracks don't get a fair crack of the whip. So, FotD & DoD have become great (live) tracks. It's also, to me, a reflection of just how good SiT is --that literally none of the tracks have had their reputation cemented live, but the album (& everything on it) is still so highly rated. (And some NPfTD & FoTD tracks could have been great live.)
 
Wow, big reaction Crimson! Thanks for the book quote as well. Remember it's unofficial (not that I don't believe you, but I wonder how this info came here).

One of the first things I owned by Maiden was the Visions of the Beast DVD and so Tailgunner/Holy Smoke were actually two of the songs that drew me to them... the rest of the album just never caught for me, at all.

Interesting. When I bought No Prayer, I discovered that I liked the non-singles more than the singles.

Fear of the Dark's problem as an album is that it varies TOO much and jumps about too quickly, it doesn't flow. There's some good tracks on there and many varied styles but even in the first half it changes dramatically more than once.

Well, I can imagine that. The songs have different tempo's and atmospheres, though mostly, there's this tense, uncomfortable feeling (Fear?).

everyone has a different opinion/taste remember ;)

Of course, but when opinion "changes" facts, I wonder if someone did grasp the facts.
 
Point is, come Donnington '92 --very little of NPfTD survived. And now: no tracks live at all. I just think neglected/underrated (or just plain not rated) album tracks don't get a fair crack of the whip.

Good point. 7 songs from Fear of the Dark were never played (still a record), and most No Prayer songs never came further than the album tour itself. The ones that were never played are in my eyes the best: Fates Warning, Run Silent Run Deep, Mother Russia.
 
Heh Foro, different timezones, by the time I got online there'd been almost a page of posts so I did one block response ;)

Yeah, the book is still opinion for the largest part but they do have interview quotes etc, complete with sources (I've not checked the sources) for many.

Part of the FOTD/NPFTD live absence imo is as you said, the 'atmosphere', it's very hard to slow down mid gig, up the tempo again, slow down again.. etc, and other songs I just don't think fit a live environment. Maiden are often very... active, jumpy and speedy in performance - esp with so many songs having gallops. Which doesn't fit with the NPFTD/FOTD tracks that well aside from a few.
 
I agree Crimson Idol. Reccently I was listening to the solos/mid-section on Alexander The Great (if I did a countdown, it would probably be in my top 3) & the thought crossed my mind: maybe this wouldn't be as good as I imagine live. I know, I know; we'd all love to hear it. But something about it wants me to leave it in 1986...
 
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