Progressive rock / metal

I've recently gone on a prog metal/rock binge, trying to catch up on everything I've missed.

Rush has such a huge discography, I decided to go in quasi-alphabetical order. So far I've heard Caress of Steel (didn't like), Counterparts (ok), A Farewell to Kings (I really liked Cygnus X-1), Fly By Night (apart from the baller cover art about all I liked from that was By-Tor and the Snow Dog), Grace Under Pressure (good), and Test For Echo (has 2 songs I really like). Other than that I've heard a few songs peppered in between from various albums. What I will say so far from what I've heard is that Rush has some gems, but on average, they have a lot of average stuff (pardon the pun). Its also not quite heavy enough on overall for my taste. Also, Geddy Lee's voice gets on my nerves sometimes, its very thin on high notes especially on earlier stuff. Anyway, as I progress (man, another pun), I'll update you guys.

Another band I've listened to a lot recently is Dream Theater. For some reason I had bought Once in a Livetime way back in 2006 or 2007, listened to it, and been less than impressed. I had subsequently written off Dream Theater as kinda lame. Needless to say I've changed my mind.
Here are the albums I've heard so far and what I think of them:
Awake: My favorite album. Its very consistent, and consistently good. My favorite tracks off of it are The Mirror, Lifting Shadows Off a Dream, and Space-Dye Vest (although this last one is I'm sure not everyone's cup of tea).
Falling Into Infinity: Not that impressed by this. The only song I really like from this one is Hollow Years.
Images and Words: Close second to Awake. I can see this album taking over as number 1 depending on my mood on any given day. Of course the epic on this is, in fact, epic. I needed some time to get into Metropolis Part 1, but I gave it a chance and now it sits firmly up there with some of the best songs I've ever heard.
Metropolis Part 2: This album works well as a concept album, with songs listened to consecutively. However, individually, the songs don't shine as much as some on other albums.
Octavarium: This one was a mixed bag. The Answer Lies Within is possibly the most frustrating Dream Theater song I've heard so far because the tune is good but the lyrics are incredibly annoying. I realize it was written for someone's son, but still. I had a hard time with Sacrificed Sons as well, due to the lyrics and also to the random instrumental solo that is completely out of touch with the rest of the song. Its a good solo, but it doesn't fit the song. The title track itself, however, is very good. Right now its right behind Metropolis Part 1 as one of the best epics I've ever heard.
Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence: Again, I like the title track. Its nice that on the version I have its partitioned into "movements" though because I would lose patience listening to a 42 minute song all in one go. The rest is ok, but doesn't blow me out of the water. Disappear is very good but I disliked The Great Debate.
Train of Thought: This is apparently the "metal" album. And it feels a little bit like DT is trying a bit too hard to have it be heavy. Stream of Consciousness is very good. Other than that, it engages in a little bit too much wankery for my taste.

I've also recently acquired some Symphony X, which will be listened to soon.
 
I just started my third or fourth full King Crimson run (to rate the albums), the debut and the second album are done. 5 stars out of 5 to In the Court of the Crimson King, 4,5 stars to In the Wake of Poseidon.
 
...

If you haven't yet indulged...
then you must try some classic Van Der Graaf Generator.



Of course, as with most true "progressive" pieces of music,
you can't simply judge the tune by only the first few minutes or so.
;)

...
 
Natalie said:
Awake: My favorite album. Its very consistent, and consistently good. My favorite tracks off of it are The Mirror, Lifting Shadows Off a Dream, and Space-Dye Vest (although this last one is I'm sure not everyone's cup of tea).
Click to expand...
Space Dye Vest seems to be a fan favorite, really. Also, all versions of Six Degrees have the song split up. I manually merged my version into one song. But on the CD it's cut.
 
Nat, for heavy prog, you've only really hit one Rush album - farewell to Kings.
The 2112 to Moving Pictures period (Hemispheres, Permanent Waves) is where they were at their heavy-proggiest (love making up words like that).
 
Mosh said:
Space Dye Vest seems to be a fan favorite, really.
Click to expand...

I think the decline of Space-Dye Vest as a good song from DT fans (although not the majority, minority) is because of its structure. It's pretty much a Kevin Moore song rather than a Dream Theater song. Doesn't have a progressive feel. But still, it's a wonderful song. I've noticed one thing about progressive fans, sometimes they can be so devoted to the word "progressive". Devotion to normality wouldn't be so progressive, right ? I also see that kind of behaviour from the bands themselves, adding "fake" polyrhythm sections or weird sections that make no sense just because to please "devoted" fans. To see progressive rock turning into an unsurprising, indistinguishable genre is sad, really.
 
I think Space Dye Vest is one of the most progressive things on the album. And for the reason you said. How many DT fans listening to Awake for the first time saw that song coming? Now that's progressive.
 
Well, what does progressive mean? I understand what the word itself means and I also understand what is understood by the genre (rock or metal blended with pseudo-classical or jazz elements, roughly), but it seems to be assumed that prog is always supposed to be surprising and different as well. If that is the case, then won't all progressive music eventually become "normal" simply because it is no longer different (i.e. its been done before)? I think this is untenable in the long run.
 
Mosh said:
I think Space Dye Vest is one of the most progressive things on the album. And for the reason you said. How many DT fans listening to Awake for the first time saw that song coming? Now that's progressive.
Click to expand...

Maybe. I wouldn't consider it progressive because it's a nice piano-vocal song with a new wave feel, it's not really different. I'd consider it as "Freshness" rather than "Progressiveness" because it's all about the band itself, not the entire music world.

@ Natalie

If you ask me, you have to be original at the start to be a progressive band. Doing the same style throughout the career doesn't make a band unprogressive. But starting with copying other band's "done before" styles is unprogressive.

The progressive rock/metal thing is pretty complicated. I consider Iron Maiden as a progressive band. Not the genre progressive rock/metal, the term progressive. They didn't copy the whole style of a band, they blended some styles in, came up with a new style. Now we call their style Maidenesque when we hear it somewhere else.

And I don't think there's a single band I love that isn't progressive. That's what I hate about new bands, too, they're simply copycats. (not everyone of them, though)
 
Progressive music to me is less about style and more about the content. Sure there is complex stuff, and long songs as a prog standard. But you don't need long songs to be prog. Rush hasn't released a long song (not including Headlong Flight) since Moving Pictures, but their style keeps changing and they have always reinvented themselves. That to me is progressive. Same thing with Genesis after Gabriel and Hackett left. I agree with Flash on bands needing to be original to be progressive. If it's a copy of another prog band, then there isn't anything new. It's still progressive in style, but it doesn't have an identity. I hope that makes sense.
 
Non progressive bands can also have an own identity if they do not change their sound or style (much).
Some people might not like that but that's an entire different matter.

I disagree with you guys that this is absolutely not about style. I connect the label with complexity.

Take Rush: I think they became more and very progressive as soon as Peart arrived in the band. Then a turning point came: The songs became less complex, got more simple poppy structures. I don't say that's a bad thing but I'd never call the 1980s and later work Rush's progressive era. Yes they were changing, but that's because they couldn't evolve more in the direction they followed in the second half of the 1970s.

Therefore I do not find the wikipedia definition that difficult to accept:

Progressive rock bands pushed "rock's technical and compositional boundaries" by going beyond the standard rock or popular verse-chorus-based song structures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_rock
 
Forostar said:
Non progressive bands can also have an own identity if they do not change their sound or style (much).
Click to expand...
I think if a band can change their sound or style while still maintaining their core sound, then that really shows a band they have their own identity.
 
Perhaps, but that doesn't exclude what I said (and I added stuff in my previous post).

I think the word progression is something else than your and Flash's definition of the genre. The genre itself was a progression from the simpler rock that already existed but progressive rock has more to do with style and structure, rather than with constantly changing themselves.
 
The definition on wikipedia definitely makes sense, I just feel that sometimes people think that progressive nowadays has to be progressing from the progressive that there already is in order to even be progressive. My point being, that doesn't work in the long run. You can only "push the boundaries" so far before it all disintegrates. So as regards Space Dye Vest, I think it is a progressive song, not because it is surprising in any way (yes it is different) but because it is unusual in its style as compared to the average rock song.

I actually kind of have a problem that this genre is termed "progressive" because it implies that what came before it is not only simpler but in fact, less good. But we can't go back and change it unfortunately.
 
Forostar said:
Progressive rock bands pushed "rock's technical and compositional boundaries" by going beyond the standard rock or popular verse-chorus-based song structures.
Click to expand...

That's absolutely is the truth. What I'm saying is pretty much this. Compositional boundaries. Progressiveness in music to me is to come up with new, original ideas, pushing the boundaries.

Style : The basic of the band, the identity of the band (if there is one)
Freshness : Doing out of style things and releasing them.
Progressiveness : Pushing compositional boundaries (which I get as "originality") and making them a part of the band's sound, whilst keeping the style. (again, if there is one)

For example : Lady Gaga's musical style is a blend of dance, electronic and pop which is not really an original idea. But that's her style. If she comes up with a progressive metal song on her next release, that's freshness. If she adds "odd (for those who are fond of her main work), original things" to her style and makes them a regular part of her sound (which is dance, electronic and pop), that's progressiveness.

So, let's go back to my point. The sound which is known as progressive rock sound or something is not really the progressiveness itself, it's the style. If a band does technical music with complex structures, it's the style. Without originality, you're not progressive and as I've said, some progressive rock/metal fans seem to pass on that.
 
I guess the term originality is debatable as well. Take Dream Theater. How original do we find them?
They've copied from Rush and Pink Floyd. Still, they are not a rap band. They are known to be a progressive rock / metal band.
 
Style : The basic of the band, the identity of the band (if there is one)
Freshness : Doing out of style things and releasing them.
Progressiveness : Pushing compositional boundaries (which I get as "originality") and making them a part of the band's sound, whilst keeping the style. (again, if there is one)
Click to expand...
Great way to put it.

Forostar said:
I guess the term originality is debatable as well. Take Dream Theater. How original do we find them?
They've copied from Rush and Pink Floyd. Still, they are not a rap band. They are known to be a progressive rock / metal band.
Click to expand...
Right, because not a dose of Dream Theater is original. It is all a Rush ripoff. ::)
 
averycopeland said:
...

If you haven't yet indulged...
then you must try some classic Van Der Graaf Generator.

Van Der Graaf Generator - The Sleepwalkers

Van Der Graaf Generator - Man-Erg

Of course, as with most true "progressive" pieces of music,
you can't simply judge the tune by only the first few minutes or so.
;)

...
Click to expand...

I love Van Der Graaf Generator, these two songs are some of my favorites. The whole Pawn Hearts and Godbluff albums are great.

Also, I think progressive rock is a genre with certain rules and a certain style, like almost any other genre. Progressiveness which Flash described is a different thing.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top