Official Israel/Palestine topic

[Forostar]

With an own state, I think the Palestinians will have more freedom. They will be allowed to receive decent help from other countries. Basic needs, medicines etc. No more Israeli blockades.

There was actually a Palestinian civil war in 2007 between Hamas and Fatah supporters that ended up with Hamas occupying the Gaza strip and Fatah controlling the West Bank. Hence, I do not understand people who believe that this new alliance will last.

Did change make things worse than the Milošević/Karadžić/Mladić era?

Change, my friends, is all we need. It is needed, even if ever lasting peace cannot be guaranteed.

 

[Perun]

Freedom doesn't fill your stomach.

And what change exactly are you speaking of?

 

[Forostar]

Freedom does fill your stomach when you have the freedom to get the needs to do so.

Any change to improvement matters.

Let's start with Obama's words, and my sig.

 

[Perun]

Freedom does fill your stomach when you have the freedom to get the needs to do so.

Which is the point I was trying to make with my earlier post. The Palestinians are always going to be dependent of outside help. That is not "freedom", because essentially, they are at the mercy of those they can pay. And what are they going to pay them with?

Any change to improvement matters.

Let's start with Obama's words, and my sig.

This is all so vague. If this conflict could be solved with simple phrases, why hasn't it already been done? There have been a lot of very nice words about this, spoken with the very best of intentions. I'm not saying that it is completely impossible that peace can actually be reached now, but I just can't share your euphoria about it. Everything that's been said here has been said before, so many times. Can you imagine where I got this quote from:

The two sides agree that West Bank and Gaza Strip territory, except for issues that will be negotiated in the permanent status negotiations, will come under the jurisdiction of the Palestinian Council in a phased manner, to be completed within 18 months from the date of the inauguration of the Council, as specified below


These words were agreed upon in 1994! Nothing happened. Nothing. Why should things be different this time?

So maybe Obama's intention is good, but what if he isn't re-elected next year? Or the Israeli or Palestinian politicians negotiating a new process are being assassinated by fanatics from their own ranks? It's all happened before. And don't forget that virtually all of the neighbouring countries are currently experiencing revolutions with unclear outcome. Israel isn't a topic in any of them at the moment, but the dynamics of a revolution are unpredictable. The conditions for this peace progress are extremely fragile.

---

In other news, Netanyahu has made an official response to Obama's speech. The link goes to an Al Jazeera article.

Netanyahu is quoted saying:

"While Israel is prepared to make generous compromises for peace, it cannot go back to the 1967 borders because these borders are indefensible."

 

[Forostar]

Which is the point I was trying to make with my earlier post. The Palestinians are always going to be dependent of outside help. That is not "freedom", because essentially, they are at the mercy of those they can pay. And what are they going to pay them with?

How did Israel grow strong? Without finance from outside that area? Without freedom to immigrate and emigrate?
They are indeed at the mercy of others, but that's the current situation. It'll take years before they'll grow strong and become more independent themselves. No one said it was going to be easy.

This is all so vague. If this conflict could be solved with simple phrases, why hasn't it already been done?

Because strong nations haven't addressed this conflict as well as Obama does now.

There have been a lot of very nice words about this, spoken with the very best of intentions. I'm not saying that it is completely impossible that peace can actually be reached now, but I just can't share your euphoria about it.

No problem.

Everything that's been said here has been said before, so many times. Can you imagine where I got this quote from:

The two sides agree that West Bank and Gaza Strip territory, except for issues that will be negotiated in the permanent status negotiations, will come under the jurisdiction of the Palestinian Council in a phased manner, to be completed within 18 months from the date of the inauguration of the Council, as specified below


These words were agreed upon in 1994! Nothing happened. Nothing. Why should things be different this time?

All I can do is hope that more and people will realize the need to act.

So maybe Obama's intention is good, but what if he isn't re-elected next year? Or the Israeli or Palestinian politicians negotiating a new process are being assassinated by fanatics from their own ranks? It's all happened before.

I fear that too. If the Americans are willing to fuck up progression in this process, the blood will be on their hands, and history will remember them for that.

And don't forget that virtually all of the neighbouring countries are currently experiencing revolutions with unclear outcome. Israel isn't a topic in any of them at the moment, but the dynamics of a revolution are unpredictable. The conditions for this peace progress are extremely fragile.

I won't deny that. At the same time Palestinians are inspired by those revolutions. It's all about the same: more freedom, more rights, and demand for change to get these things.

 

[Perun]

All I can do is hope

Indeed, all one can do here is hope.

 

[Nigel Tufnel]

There are enities at work who use the plight of the Palestinians for thier own purposes. Exploiting them to try and destroy Israel. I feel for them, because there is no one looking out for their best interests. If everyone had pure intentions, then there would be two states by now. By that, I mean all parties involved. It is sad that so many lives have been wasted for no end.

 

[bearfan]

There are enities at work who use the plight of the Palestinians for thier own purposes. Exploiting them to try and destroy Israel. I feel for them, because there is no one looking out for their best interests. If everyone had pure intentions, then there would be two states by now. By that, I mean all parties involved. It is sad that so many lives have been wasted for no end.

No question, the surrounding Abab countries have done as much (if not more) harm to the Palastinians than Israel ever has.

 

[Nigel Tufnel]

With an own state, I think the Palestinians will have more freedom. They will be allowed to receive decent help from other countries. Basic needs, medicines etc. No more Israeli blockades.

The reason for the blockade is to try and control the flow of weapons and bomb making materials, not deny Palestinians food, water or basic medical supplies. I think it would be best if the Palestinians had their own state, but sadly I don't think it will lead to lasting peace between Israel and it's neighbors.

Because strong nations haven't addressed this conflict as well as Obama has now.

You can't be serious about that. I don't think foreign affairs is his cup of tea. He's doing alot of damage to long standing alliances.

 

[LooseCannon]

He does fantastic foreign affairs. The problem is that the people in the States seem to really dislike what he does. He strengthened a LOT of the US's foreign policy. The Israel thing is the only real change he's pushed...and let's be honest, it's not like Israel can tell the States to fuck off. They can't go it alone, and they bloody well know it.

 

[Forostar]

The problem is that the people in the States seem to really dislike what he does.

Exactly. And their disliking has nothing to do with rational ideas.

It's a matter of going from
A. Israeli people > Palestinian people         to
B. Israeli people = Palestinian people

(> meaning "more important than" and = meaning "are equal to")

Obama's reasoning shows me that he thinks B. Lots of his opponents in the States are still stuck at A.
They won't admit it, but their total lack of argumentation (or understanding why those people should have equal rights) and their huge mistrust towards Palestinians tells me that.

 

[bearfan]

I think you need to distinguish by "states/leaders"

Most people in the US are

Israel > PLO/Hammas/Hexbollah

moreso than Jews > Palestinians

 

[LooseCannon]

Which is fair, but if you step back, logically, there's no really good reason to not support the concept of a Palestinian state. The carrot that needs to be dangled (which Obama has done) is that if Palestinians behave in a manner suggesting they can form a responsible, peaceable government, they'll get their own country.

They won't get everything they want, but the point is that nobody gets everything they want when you compromise. If Palestine (specifically, their leaders and terrorist organizations) won't recognize this, they can continue to go with the status quo, where they have nothing but two ghettos.

Also, Hezbollah has little to do with Palestine, and it's wrong to bring them into this discussion. They're a Lebanese group.

 

[Forostar]

I think you need to distinguish by "states/leaders"

Most people in the US are

Israel > PLO/Hammas/Hexbollah

moreso than Jews > Palestinians

As long as people view all Palestinians as PLO/Hamas/Hezbollah (and not as people who desire more freedom), then they have no clue what they're talking about. And they forget the principle of some consequences.
Rule 1: Oppression and land picking leads to revolt.

moreso than Jews > Palestinians

I doubt that.

 

[bearfan]

Perhaps, but the Palestinian people have been done no favors in the court of public opinion by allowing these organizations to "represent" them/the lack of Palestinian voices that are in positions of power condeming these groups.

Israel benefits from the enemy of our enemy is our friend, but also benefits from pictures on TV of blown up school buses.

 

[Forostar]

Perhaps, but the Palestinian people have been done no favors in the court of public opinion by allowing these organizations to "represent" them/the lack of Palestinian voices that are in positions of power condeming these groups.

Rule 1: Oppression and land picking leads to revolt.

pictures on TV

I am afraid it's not going to help if FOX news and perhaps other media and internet nitwits show one side of this conflict, only.

 

[Wästed The Great]

We all know that FOX leans to the right. However, Foro, don't assume that whenever someone from the US posts something about pictures on TV that we mean FOX. We are somewhat diversified in what we watch.

 

[bearfan]

Actually on this issue, there is little difference in coverage from FOX to CBS to NBC to ABC to the US version of CNN, etc. 

 

[LooseCannon]

He's exactly right. In fact, very few people paint the various Palestinian-linked terrorist organizations in good light, primarily because they are terrorist organizations.

The (primary) difference in my mind is that Israel reacts. They very rarely initiate action. They might come down with both feet and kill a lot of innocent people, but they've taken the (perfectly logical) stance that they'll do anything to safeguard the lives of their own citizens. I can't see a single thing wrong with this point of view, despite the hardships it's caused the Palestinians, because Israel has a right to exist. Period.

If Hamas can figure out that they will literally NEVER win and that peace is better than dying in a jihad, they will have peace. Instantly, pretty much.

 

[Forostar]

We all know that FOX leans to the right. However, Foro, don't assume that whenever someone from the US posts something about pictures on TV that we mean FOX. We are somewhat diversified in what we watch.

I was talking about lots of Obama-opponents, not just a handful of forumers here. I assume lots of Obama-opponents watch FOX, especially the more extreme ones, such as people who support The Tea Party.

Actually on this issue, there is little difference in coverage from FOX to CBS to NBC to ABC to the US version of CNN, etc.

That's new for me. Thanks for the info. But it doesn't make me happier.
It means the pro-Israel propaganda is even worse than I feared.

If Hamas can figure out that they will literally NEVER win and that peace is better than dying in a jihad, they will have peace. Instantly, pretty much.

You think peace will come when the borders will stay like this? When the Palestinians will continue living in this state (not state as country )?

I don't think resistance (in whatever form) will ever stop as long as Israel will not change a thing, and keeps building their houses on ground which is not theirs.

And that's why Obama calls on both parties.