Official Hockey discussion thread

Habberdasher said:
Not trying to start trouble. I'm just a Devils fan.

I blame Brodeur for plenty of losses over the years. 2010 to Carolina, 2008 to the Rangers, etc, but outside of Game 1, Brodeur didn't play terribly in that series. Let's not forget Roy almost single-handedly giving the series away by straying away from the net for much of the series.
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I don't blame Brodeur for the loss in 2010.  I don't think his play has been the reason the Devils haven't won it all since 2003.  The Devils for the 5 years prior to the lockout were powerhouses, offensively and defensively.  A team like that is bound to win.  

Also, Roy's save percentage in that series: 0.938.  Are you seriously suggesting that him and Brodeur played equally well during that series?  That's the difference this year between Tim Thomas and... oh wait.  There isn't a single starting goalie in the NHL that played that poorly in 2010-11.  The closest is Khabibulin, who posted a 0.890 save percentage.  That's a full 2% higher.
Brodeur is as positionally sound goalie as you will find, he is always in position so he doesn't make a lot of highlight reel saves (a la Thomas or Hasek) because he is in position. He also tends to face fewer shots for a couple of reasons. 1) of course the Devils usually have a stellar defense, but 2) his puck-moving skills help clear the zone and 3) his rebound control limits follow-up shots. So a team may get 1 or 2 on him, but rarely a flurry of 5-6 shots at a time. For those reasons his save % is rarely among tops in the league.
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I think Brodeur's quite athletic and makes his fair share of highlight reel material.  I don't know if "positionally sound" is how I'd describe him; his style is a bit different than the by-the-numbers butterfly style that that phrase makes me think of.

I don't know how many shots his puck-moving limits.  I think the importance of that aspect of his game is wildly overblown simply because he is so evidently better at that aspect than the majority of other goaltenders.  

But I do strongly disagree as to your reasoning for why he never has a high save percentage.  Rebound control aids save percentage; rebound shots are much more likely to go in than other shots.  If you've got a goalie who's getting flurries of chances, his save percentage is going to be lower, not higher.

I'm just spitballing this, but considering the average save percentage this year in the regular season was 0.913, that means your average shot has a 8.7% likelihood of going in.  I'd put a rebound at 20-25%.  So, Brodeur's rebound control (a point I'm conceding; I'm not certain that he has better than average rebound control) and his willingness to use his stick to break up plays would be helping his save percentage rather than harming it.
 
No Roy certainly played better than Brodeur in games 6-7 of that series. He had some gaffes early on but settled in and had lazer focus late in the series while Brodeur was "average". I'm not going to dig out the stats, but the 5-0 drubbing in game surely hurt his save%.

I think Brodeur's ability to play the puck limits shots in 2 ways:
1) if a puck is dumped in and the goalie doesn't play it, the offensive player may put a harmless shot on net, hoping the goalie will cover. That team gets a faceoff in the offensive zone and may get another 1-3 shots. By Brodeur playing the puck at a higher rate and with higher ability than most other Gs.
2) He effectively clears the zone consistently. So rebounds notwithstanding (I agree with you on this point), his ability to get the puck out of the zone cuts down on defensive zone faceoffs (see above).

In the end, he probably sees 5-8 fewer shots per game. But this is just my theory. I suppose we could compare shots faced by Brodeur and shots faced by Clemmensen from 2 years ago when he was injured, but the D tends to tighten up when back-ups are playing. It's hard to quantify any of this. Just my theory. i'm not hurt if you, or any others don't agree. Just something to pass the time until next week's draft.
 
I have never been more glad to be wrong on a prediction! WAY TO GO BOSTON!!!! Without Horton, without Savard! I true blue-collar team, no real flashy players, no Bourques, Oates or Neelys. The only position that was an upgrade from those Bruins of the late 80's early 90's was goaltending... Timmy T.

Though as the Series went on I stand by my final assessment:

Onhell said:
Vancouver has gotten lucky in Vancouver with either 1-0 wins or lucky bounces in OT. Boston on the other hand has manhandled Vancouver on home ice outscoring them 16-3. If Boston can bring that same intensity to game 7 there won't be a need for OT and Luongo will be shunned from Vancouver. We shall see.
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I really need to start betting on Hockey :D

I'm sorry for the Vancouver fans, I do feel bittersweet as I am sad a Canadian team lost, even sadder that it was Vancouver, a STRONG Vancouver squad. But I've been rooting for Boston since I was 12 so.... YAY!
 
Habberdasher said:
No Roy certainly played better than Brodeur in games 6-7 of that series. He had some gaffes early on but settled in and had lazer focus late in the series while Brodeur was "average". I'm not going to dig out the stats, but the 5-0 drubbing in game surely hurt his save%.

I think Brodeur's ability to play the puck limits shots in 2 ways:
1) if a puck is dumped in and the goalie doesn't play it, the offensive player may put a harmless shot on net, hoping the goalie will cover. That team gets a faceoff in the offensive zone and may get another 1-3 shots. By Brodeur playing the puck at a higher rate and with higher ability than most other Gs.
2) He effectively clears the zone consistently. So rebounds notwithstanding (I agree with you on this point), his ability to get the puck out of the zone cuts down on defensive zone faceoffs (see above).

In the end, he probably sees 5-8 fewer shots per game. But this is just my theory. I suppose we could compare shots faced by Brodeur and shots faced by Clemmensen from 2 years ago when he was injured, but the D tends to tighten up when back-ups are playing. It's hard to quantify any of this. Just my theory. i'm not hurt if you, or any others don't agree. Just something to pass the time until next week's draft.
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Hmm.  5-8 shots seems incredibly high.  If we go back to 2009-10, NJ faced the second least shots total, allowing 27.0/game.  The worst team was Florida, allowing 34.1/game.  Even if Brodeur only prevented 5 shots each game, that would put New Jersey in the bottom 6 in terms of shots allowed.  I don't buy that.  I'm not certain whether Brodeur's style of playing the puck significantly prevents shots, but at the most I'd wager 1-2 shots per game.

EDIT:  Let's play a game.  These stats are from the 2008-09 campaign, where Brodeur's playing time was limited due to injury.  New Jersey finished third in the East, and fifth overall.  They allowed 29.5 shots/game, which was 12th overall.  Can you tell which goalie is Brodeur, which one is Kevin Weekes, and which one is Scott Clemmensen?  For reference, Brodeur played 31 games that season, Clemmensen 40, and Weekes 16.  SA/G is calculated per 60 minutes, because the games played count part games.  No cheating!  

Sv %      GAA        SA/G
0.917      2.39         29.2
0.920      2.42         30.1
0.916      2.41         28.8
 
GP, I think now is the proper time to say you were right on Thomas.
I still want to second-guess his guessing style, but that level of sustained excellence trumps that argument every time.
 
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What I want to know is why did'nt the city of Vancouver prepare for this unfortunate event? The Canuckleheads pulled the same shit when they lost game 7 back in 1994 to my beloved New York Rangers. And this time, not only was game 7 in Vancouver, but Vancouver was the favorite to win. Guess it's like the saying goes, those who choose not to remember history are doomed to repeat it.
 
They definitely were prepared. There was talk about a repeat of '94 throughout the playoff run.
Unfortunately that same talk seemed form an expectation that something was going to happen.
The police maintain this was not a spontaneous outburst, but something that was planned.
I talked to a couple guys who were there who said that there was talk in the crowd as early as 2-0 that it was time to get it on.
From what I saw (I watched about three hours of live coverage), the cops were prepared, but were operating under the mandate of minimizing injury.
There were a lot of idiots that deserved to be thumped down hard, and from what I saw the cops showed an amazing and surprising amount of restraint.
 
Watching the interview at the NHL Store with Zdeno Chara, Patrice Bergeron, and Tim Thomas. Fascinating. When they're not talking, they're still looking at the Cup, and you can tell they're going, "Holy fuck. We WON that fucking thing. No really. We won the Stanley Cup."

Tim Thomas's story is one of the greatest in hockey history. He came from nothing, and by the end of this season he'll be the most celebrated goaltender in US history. 2 Vezinas (more than any other US goaltender, well as of next week when the awards come out), the Conn Smythe (only US goaltender, 2nd American), an Olympic Silver Medal (behind Miller but it's still on his neck), and a Bronze in the World Championship; in addition, he has two Crozier Awards and a Jennings Trophy.

And, of course, the Stanley Cup.
 
LooseCannon said:
Watching the interview at the NHL Store with Zdeno Chara, Patrice Bergeron, and Tim Thomas. Fascinating. When they're not talking, they're still looking at the Cup, and you can tell they're going, "Holy fuck. We WON that fucking thing. No really. We won the Stanley Cup."

Tim Thomas's story is one of the greatest in hockey history. He came from nothing, and by the end of this season he'll be the most celebrated goaltender in US history. 2 Vezinas (more than any other US goaltender, well as of next week when the awards come out), the Conn Smythe (only US goaltender, 2nd American), an Olympic Silver Medal (behind Miller but it's still on his neck), and a Bronze in the World Championship; in addition, he has two Crozier Awards and a Jennings Trophy.

And, of course, the Stanley Cup.
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Not bad for a guy who was struggling to just STAY in the NHL just 3 seasons ago.
 
GuineaPig said:
Sv %      GAA        SA/G
0.917      2.39         29.2
0.920      2.42         30.1
0.916      2.41         28.8
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With stats like that it's clear why Kevin Weeks never played another minute in the NHL and Brodeur went on to set the all-time wins record (later that season).

I'll guess Clemmer, Weeks and Brodeur in that order.
 
Habberdasher said:

With stats like that it's clear why Kevin Weeks never played another minute in the NHL and Brodeur went on to set the all-time wins record (later that season).

I'll guess Clemmer, Weeks and Brodeur in that order.
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Sarcasm?  But yes, you're correct.  Of note: Weekes has the highest save percentage of the three, certainly not what one might expect.  Clemmensen also had a better save percentage than Brodeur.  Thirdly, the SA/G might show a bit of the effect Brodeur has with his puckhandling; he faced 0.4 and 1.3 SA/game less than Clemmensen and Weekes respectively.

But my point was that if Brodeur was an elite goalie, you'd expect him to play better than his backups.  Like Kevin Weekes.  That a back-up goalie who had spent his previous seasons in the AHL could take-over the reins and deliver superior numbers over the course of a season sort of puts a dent in the notion that there's something special about Brodeur.  But, to be fair, Brodeur was injured for most of the season, and that might've affected his play (although he had an identical save percentage next season).

Here's a breakdown of how goalies played in the regular season while compared to their backups.  The best goalie, is of course, not surprising: Hasek was 29.9% better than his backups, and 41.5% better in his prime. 

Brodeur was 4.5 % better than his backups, and 18.4% better in his prime.

And then, you can compare the quality of the backups: Hasek had Grant Fuhr, Steve Shields, Dwayne Roloson.  The best Brodeur had was Mike Dunham.  One would think that one of the greatest goalies of all time would've significantly outplayed counterparts like Chris Terreri.
 
Brodeur is starting to show his age... Thomas finally made it into the NHL and playing well, but Brodeur has been a work house for close to two decades.
 
I don't think Brodeur played that much more poorly this year than last.  The difference was the team in front of him.  The Devils played absolutely atrocious defence for the first half; by the time they were whipped into shape, it was too late.
 
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