Official Football Thread

[Albie]

Until the day Hiddink arrives.

I'm not convinced, sorry. To better Ferguson's record will take a monumental effort that cannot be achieved in these days of sacking managers when they loose two games on the trot. He did not start at Man U particularly well and had he started now with that record he would have been out on his ear before the season is up. Luckily for him (and Man U), the then chairman had faith in him and stuck it out. A lot of their success is not just down to the players he has signed and so on, but the players he has nurtured from their excellent youth policy (Giggs, Scholes, Beckham right up to Welbeck).

I don't think there is any chairman/owner of any club that has the guts or patience to stick with any manager through thick and thin to be able to achieve what Ferguson has achieved - despite the closeness of the relationship between the two. The day we started getting the money men to buy these clubs sounded the death knell for the long-term manager.

@LC: There is, at times, some confusion over their roles because they could be called the manager, when they are really the coach (or head coach) - Fabio Capello at England, for example. But occasionally, we have managers and coaches where in this case the manager manages the whole team and the coaches (Alex Ferguson at Man U)- and has the say as to what team is picked and the tactics adopted, etc.

At the end of the day, though, they are simply the gaffer.

 

[Forostar]

I'm not convinced, sorry. To better Ferguson's record will take a monumental effort that cannot be achieved in these days of sacking managers when they loose two games on the trot. He did not start at Man U particularly well and had he started now with that record he would have been out on his ear before the season is up. Luckily for him (and Man U), the then chairman had faith in him and stuck it out. A lot of their success is not just down to the players he has signed and so on, but the players he has nurtured from their excellent youth policy (Giggs, Scholes, Beckham right up to Welbeck).

Personally I am at least as much impressed about what Hiddink has done with various clubs and countries. He hardly ever started in easy conditions. On the contrary: his new jobs have often been big challenges.

I think he could have done the same with PSV (still 1 European Cup I, 6 national league titles and 4 national cups) as Fergy, but Hiddink is more adventurous and wanted to do more apart from staying 20 years with one club. I guess that this quality is actually the reason why he got the Chelsea job. I know that Ferguson is longer in the business, but Hiddink is the one with more experience because of all these challenges and because he worked with so many different people and cultures.

I won't deny that Ferguson is a great manager but I am very curious if Hiddink can bring the fire back in Chelsea. This is what matters now.

During/after this season we'll evaluate these matters.

And if he fails? No problem, let Sar or Kuyt taste sweet victory. 

So, today the deal was settled:

------

Guus Hiddink to test powers of persuasion at Chelsea

THE HAGUE, Netherlands — Guus Hiddink's reputation for getting the best out of his team will face another challenge when he takes over Chelsea's faltering Premier League title bid.

Signed as a replacement for Luiz Felipe Scolari until the end of the season while retaining the reins of the Russia national team, Hiddink can point to an impressive track record of success with the likes of South Korea, Australia and his native Netherlands.

If Hiddink can weave his magic with Chelsea, which has slipped to fourth in the table and seven points behind leader Manchester United, he may stick around longer.

"There are two scenarios," he said Wednesday. "Either they say: 'Go back to the East' or it all goes well, and then ... but that is not ideal."

South Koreans erected statues in the 62-year-old Dutchman's honour and gave him honorary citizenship after he led the national team on its unlikely charge to the semifinals of the 2002 World Cup.

Then he managed to briefly convert rugby and cricket-crazy Australia into a country of soccer fans by engineering the country's first World Cup berth in 32 years, an assignment he called close to a "mission impossible" at a press conference in Sydney announcing his appointment.

He already was a national hero at home in the Netherlands after soothing deep divisions that split the talented but immature Dutch team at Euro '96.

Hiddink guided virtually the same group of youngsters to the World Cup semifinals two years later in France, where their flowing football drew comparisons to the great Dutch sides of the 1970s before the team lost on penalties to Brazil.

The Dutchman underscored his talent for building teams capable of combining attractive, attack with tough defence when he took unheralded Russia to the semifinals of Euro '08.

The dejected team looked to be heading for an early exit after losing to Spain in its opening match. But in just a few days of training after that defeat, Hiddink managed to instill discipline and restore confidence in his players who turned into one of the surprise packages of the tournament.

Russia was outclassed by eventual champion Spain in the semifinals, but Chelsea's Russian oligarch owner Roman Abramovich must have been impressed.

Despite his almost unqualified success with nationals teams, Hiddink's record at club level is a little more patchy.

After an undistinguished career as a left-footed midfielder in the Dutch league, Hiddink first hit international headlines by winning the 1988 European Cup in his first season in charge of PSV Eindhoven - a team he ended up leading to six Dutch league titles in two stints as coach.

After his initial success in Eindhoven, Hiddink went to Turkey to coach Fenerbahce and then to Valencia, before taking over the Netherlands ahead of Euro '96.

With the near miss of the 1998 World Cup still fresh in his memory, Hiddink had his first real taste of failure at the one club he has coached that compares closely to Chelsea - Real Madrid.

Hiddink lasted less than a season at the Spanish powerhouse before his immensely talented team's poor form and an owner impatient for success got him fired in 1999. He went to Real Betis where he was given his marching orders after only three months.

But then began his march to fame, when he took over a South Korea team that had never won a match at the World Cup.

Hiddink's team beat Poland and Portugal in the group stage before knocking out European powers Italy and Spain. The South Koreans lost to Germany in the semifinals.

He returned to the Netherlands for more success with PSV. There he also learned how to combine club and country coaching by taking on the Australia job while still leading his team in Eindhoven.

Hiddink guided the Socceroos past Uruguay in a two-leg playoff to secure a berth at the 2006 World Cup, where he again exceeded expectations by reaching the second round, where a controversial penalty decision gave Italy its only goal in the final moments of a 1-0 win.

That experience will stand him in good stead as Hiddink tries to lead Chelsea back to the top of the Premier League and qualify Russia for next year's World Cup in South Africa.

 

[national acrobat]

Whatever you say about Ferguson, he is (and has been) the best Premiership manager

Until the day Hiddink arrives.  

Until Martin O'Neill has a few more years (incidentally the man who I believe will succeed Ferguson at Man U).

 

[Forostar]

Goodluck vs Spain lads, and let's kick some German butt EW!


FIFA world ranking, 11 February:         
***************************
     
1. Spanje                 1.693 points
2. Duitsland              1.403  "
3. Netherlands          1.357  "
4. Italië                   1.318  "
5. Brazilië                 1.248  "
6. Argentinië             1.181  "
7. Kroatië                 1.175  "
8. Engeland               1.136  "
9. Rusland                1.119  "
10. Turkije                1.040  "
32. Schotland (33) *     739  "
56. Noorwegen (59) *    553  "
57. Macedonië (56) *     537  "
77. IJsland (80)  *         443  "

* opponents of the Netherlands in the WC qualification

 

[Albie]

I am very curious if Hiddink can bring the fire back in Chelsea. This is what matters now.

I agree, it is what matters - but can Hiddink be given the time to re-ignite Chelsea? What they need right now is a manager that can bring them back down to earth - down from their over-inflated egos. Is Hiddink the right man to do this? I don't know, but I do have a lot of respect for this man and I would have taken him as the England manager over McLaren in a heartbeat. The problem we have in Chelsea is the patience of Abramovich!

And I agree with NA, given time, O'Neill is likely to be as successful as Fergie if he takes over at Man U. And he learnt a lot from the master himself, Brian Clough.

 

[Forostar]

Hey EW!

I told you you were going to kick some ass! 

Germany - Norway: 0-1!


My country did worse. 1-1 away vs Tunesia. :/

I agree, it is what matters - but can Hiddink be given the time to re-ignite Chelsea? What they need right now is a manager that can bring them back down to earth - down from their over-inflated egos. Is Hiddink the right man to do this?

Well, Hiddink faced his biggest managerial challenge when he took over the reins of the Dutch national team on 1 January 1995, where he took charge of a team of talented individuals continually racked by internal arguments and disputes.

But three months is short indeed.

 

[Kopfanatic]

Just watched the first half of Spain taking the piss out of England.We may have ,reputedly,the best football league in the world, but put the England team up against a decent international side and its painfully obvious how we still lag behind when it comes to technique and sharpness of passing.

Hopefully the second half will be better.

 

[Dr. Eddies Wingman]

Ass has been kicked. All we needed was to wipe the dust off good old Egil Roger  "Drillo" Olsen. I think his abilities as a motivator have been overlooked by many - during the later years people have talked about his football as being "10 men behind the ball at all times, long pass forward towards big guy". People forget quickly. Olsen is a great tactician and a very good motivator, and the players we have now do have some potential. They are not as good as the '94 or '98 teams, but we've just seen that even really strong teams need to be on their toes when they play Drillo.

1-1 against Tunisia isn't much to write home about, but I would really have liked it better if you had drawn in Oslo last October and beat Tunisia tonight  

Let's hope for a good and entertaining match between Spain and England now. 3-3 would be nice.

PS: er ... what the fuck, is the first half already finished? I thought it was starting at 22:00 GMT. Well, the second half will have to do.

 

[Forostar]

Those Tunesian wacko's had 5 yellow cards. Quite a lot for a friendly, not?

Attacked once, one goal, blunder from our keeper.  It drove me

Well, we should have kicked in at least one more...
*grumble*

 

[Dr. Eddies Wingman]

Just make sure you kick the arses of Scotland, FYROM and Iceland  Yeah, 5 bookings in a friendly is a lot. In Germany vs Norway I can't recall a single booking. By the way, have you scheduled a friendly match against Portugal any time soon? I think I want to watch it 

England vs Spain: I was robbed! I thought the game was live, but they showed it one hour delayed, meaning I had to watch the 1st half while the second was playing. And I did not want to stay up until 1 AM to watch the rest, so I only watched the first half.

Speaking of Hiddink: He has done lot of great work with different national teams. But now he doesn't only have to deal with leading a bunch of players, he must also deal with a club owner who interferes in his decision-making. He takes over a really good squad, and I think the "crisis" in Chelsea is a bit blown out of proportions. They are not completely at the level they have been the last 4 seasons (fact) but they are still safe in top 4. A new manager can do his bit on the psychological side and that might just be what is needed. On the other side, United are in good league form and even a fantastic ending to the season might not be enough for Chelsea to catch up. If United beat Fulham, Chelsea are trailing by 10 points which means United will have to drop at least that much in the remaining 13 games. Hiddink may improve Chelsea's performance, but he cannot do much to the form of Manchester United (or Liverpool). That's a fact.

As for who is the greatest manager in the Premiership today: Well, how many of the managers currently leading a Premiership side have actually won it? Two. Ferguson and Wenger. Being great has much to do with what you have achieved, and I don't think you can beat winning both the Scottish League and the Cup Winner's Cup with Aberdeen and then going on to rebuild one of England's biggest clubs after years of mismanagement, and making it the most successful club of the next two decades ... Like Sir Alex or not, he's one of the greatest managers of all time in Britain, together with people like Busby, Shankly, Paisley, Clough and Revie.

 

[Forostar]

Like Sir Alex or not, he's one of the greatest managers of all time in Britain

I agree with that. 
*runs*

 

[Albie]

@EW, I wouldn't lump Revie in the same group as Shankly, Paisley, et al. Villa's Ron Saunders and Tony Barton were probably more successful than Revie (at least Barton won the European Cup).

And some trivia, when Villa won the league in '81, Ron Saunders used only 14 players for the whole season.

 

[Forostar]

Some more league trivia (if I counted well):

Hiddink coached PSV 7 seasons, won the league with them 6 times. 6 out of 7 times.

Ferguson coached Man U 22 seasons, won the league with them 10 times. 10 out of 22 times.

Of course Man U's international success was better, but still...

 

[Dr. Eddies Wingman]

@EW, I wouldn't lump Revie in the same group as Shankly, Paisley, et al. Villa's Ron Saunders and Tony Barton were probably more successful than Revie (at least Barton won the European Cup).

And some trivia, when Villa won the league in '81, Ron Saunders used only 14 players for the whole season.

Well, I included Revie because he managed to bring success to a shit club  But I see your point.

Foro; I see your point as well, but keep in mind that throughout the history of Dutch league football, Ajax and PSV have been much more dominating than Liverpool and Manchester United have in England (29 and 21 titles for Ajax and PSV, respectively, versus 18 and 17 for Liverpool and United). Since 1980, Feyenoord have won three times and AZ once - the rest is distributed between PSV and Ajax.

Also keep in mind that when Ferguson took over the helm at Old Trafford, Liverpool were still very dominant in the league.

Mind you, I admire Hiddink and it is obvious that he's been a great manager, but for him to be considered one of the greatest managers in the PL, he must achieve a lot with Chelsea. If we are considering all achievements, Hiddink is obviously one of the big guys and has been so for a long time, but right now we were talking about the Premiership, and there he has still everything to prove.

Had it been some other club than Chelsea (or Liverpool, or City) he was taking over, I would wish him luck. Now I wish for more impatience from Abramovich, and that Hiddink takes over Norway in a year or so 

 

[Kopfanatic]

I understand all this talk of Hiddink, but sometimes you are only as good as the quality of the opposition lets you.For example Hiddink may have won the dutch premier league loads of times with PSV ,but if my Gran was in charge of Celtic, she would stand a good chance of winning the scottish championship.It wouldn't make her a good manager though.

 

[Dr. Eddies Wingman]

My point exactly.A comparison: Take the first two years after Nils Arne Eggen retired as head coach of Rosenborg BK, they still won the league in 2003 (with Åge Hareide) and in 2004 (with Ola By Rise, former assistant of Eggen). However, after that they have only won it once (in 4 seasons).

Hiddink's greatest achievements as a manager must be winning the European Cup with PSV and getting South Korea through from the group stage in 2002. (The fact that they went all the way to the semi-finals is not so much his achievement as bad refereeing ...)

 

[Forostar]

Yeah, and he had nothing to do with Russia's qualification and them reaching the final this year. And neither with Australia's amazing qualification for the last WC. And imo you underestimate Hiddink's role @ South Korea as well.
And I think you even overlooked what he did with the Dutch squad! 

Speaking of the Dutch competition, currently AZ is leading by a mile, I hope they become the champions for the first time since 1981!

I understand all this talk of Hiddink, but sometimes you are only as good as the quality of the opposition lets you.

Sometimes. But not when you are called Ferguson.

For example Hiddink may have won the dutch premier league loads of times with PSV ,but if my Gran was in charge of Celtic, she would stand a good chance of winning the scottish championship.It wouldn't make her a good manager though.

This is not true. Not every trainer is replacable by any local dickhead. You underestimate the qualities of a good football coach with talent, vision and psychological capacities. The current season for PSV surely shows that coaching does matter. PSV did crap, fired their coach and right after that they won everything (still a long way to go).

And South Korea never reached the same level after Hiddink left.

 

[Albie]

Hiddink coached PSV 7 seasons, won the league with them 6 times. 6 out of 7 times.

Well, yes. But that record is equivalent to Walter Smith's at Rangers who won 6 titles between 1991 and 1998. To win the Premiership, with respect, is harder than winning the Dutch league - Wenger is now finding out how hard it is to be consistently at the top in the Premiership, something Fergie has managed at Man U for 18 years now (only two or three times has he not managed a top two place - and even then, it was a top three finish). If Hiddink had won 6 titles out of 7 in Seria A or La Liga, then that would be impressive.

But this is not to diminish Hiddinks capabilities as a manager, as I say, I do respect him.

 

[Forostar]

1. Hiddink wasn't PSV coach for 7 years in a row. They didn't ask him back for nothing.
2. The Dutch league is stronger than the Scottish.

Anyway, what I try to point out is that he has proven that he has the capacity to change spirit and results radically in a club or nation squad.

That's something people can relate to, or rather not if they do not like the thought.

 

[Albie]

2. The Dutch league is stronger than the Scottish.

Yes it is, but not as strong as the Premiership - which is where Fergie has been immensely successful. If Hiddink starts to get Chelsea to dominate in the same way that Fergie has, then we will acknowledge that - but I don't know if Abromovich has the patience. He sacked Murinihio for what? Not doing that well in Europe (amongst other things). So Grant gets them to the final of the Champions league and was a John Terry slip away from winning it. Then he was sacked. And now Scolari.

And yes, I do agree that Hiddink has done extremely well with the international sides he has coached.