Nightwish

I gave the album a listen yesterday and my first impression is that:
  • The production sucks.
  • It’s heavier and even more layered than H/N. Lots of twists and turns in the orchestral elements.
  • Anyone complaining about Floor’s performance is out of their minds. She is on fire on this record.
  • Troy’s sections are actually pretty tasteful, he’s not all over the record like I expected.
  • The songs works better as a unit. The singles come alive within the context of the record.
  • I still miss Marko.
 
I just want to punch her, even though I realise it's really Tuomas speaking.*

[…]

* also, when you're excessively preaching your shit to someone with an actual belief system, that rarely ends well
Come on, man, comments like this are beneath you. When you brag about your “actual belief system” right after saying you’d like to punch someone for ‘bragging’ about their beliefs, it gives the impression that you’re maybe not as comfortable in your beliefs as you claim and have something to prove. I get the sentiments you’re trying to get across, but there’s gotta be a better way to articulate them.

I think this album should be a little more palatable for you lyrically. It’s in the same realm as the previous record but a little bit more celebratory about life with some introspection alongside. Nothing like “Weak Fantasy” or “Tribal”. Lots of callbacks too, the album has a lot of running threads throughout the twelve tracks.
 
I'm not criticizing Floor's performance. She's a huge singer. But, I don't like her voice. It doesn't fit to the music of NW, IMHO.
I wasn't addressing you, that was a general comment based on the past ten years of Nightwish discourse.
 
I might be the only one who likes the sound of this far!

It's weighty and lengthy material (again) but I actually like the production, and how they've used Floor's voice this time. They've made the vocals an integral part of the music, rather than sounding like someone singing over the top of metal which can get a bit pop at times.

And I find her sliding into an operatic style, which adds drama as well as offering some of the Nightwish appeal of the Tarja days. In a couple of places the vocals are reminiscent of Anette era Nightwish too (that people compared to Abba at the time!)

Not one of the songs leapt out at me individually on first listen, though. It looks like a 'one complete work' album.
 
My first thoughts – I listened to it in the car and made only mental notes (and now I’m going mostly by memory), so pardon any mistakes:
  • First of all, those that were complaining about the mixing since the first two songs came out, well, I can hear it now. The mix is really weird and I just don’t get it how the longer the bands are in the business, the worse their albums sound. And it’s not production, as I’ve seen said, but precisely mixing that’s complete shit, furthermore inconsistent over the album? There are differently overwhelming layers on different songs, but the one consistent thing is that the higher frequencies (including Floor) are drowned out.
  • The album feels really front-heavy, not necessarily in terms of quality (although that too, maybe), but energy-/memorability- wise. But then again, that's nothing new for Nightwish, I'd swear Tuomas has learnt his album sequencing from U2.
  • As far as Floor’s vocals go, this is what I wanted from EFMB – she is present and actually shows off her talent, but isn’t overwhelming (which is also because of the mix) and somewhat disperses in the sound.
  • Kai Hahto is more noticeable and makes some of the songs (Ocean, Spider Silk) much more fun by his presence alone.
  • Nothing really pissed me off on this record, if anything, there’s no „Dire Straits’ Brothers in Arms being covered for Disney’s Brother Bear“ (aka Harvest).
  • Overall, I'm liking this a lot. There are moments that genuinely thrill me, in general, I guess I have to reluctantly admit that Nightwish exist again for me (i. e. - a first canon album since 2011. Man, what a long time between albums, amirite?)
Song-specific notes:

Yesterwynde is okay, it reminds me of some actual work, but my memory now fails me, anyway, a nice intro.

An Ocean of Strange Lands – honestly, I kinda like the wack mixing here, as the song get started, it has this nervous, chaotic, energetic feel, it feels lively in a way that I wouldn’t expect Nightwish to manage anymore. Liking it a lot. The outro was an unexpected nice touch and an example of Troy being used right (although I’m still not sure how much the openly Celtic-folk theme fits Nightwish… but then again, it’s been over a decade now) – it is true that it helps the beginning of the album to sound a bit like Days of Future Passed, with all its songs divided by orchestral interludes, but … well, that used to be among my favourite albums once (though not exactly for its interludes), so whatever.

With the shift to the self-important nagging and a great humanism out of a sudden, with Shoemaker off the very previous album and now with The Antikythera Mechanism (the title already!) I can’t help but feel Tuomas has some serious Mark Jansen envy – never thought that of all things would be the case, especially now, more than 10 years after Epica’s heyday, but here you have it. I genuinely like Mechanism, for all it’s discount-Epica worth, in fact with this song being a banger, the first half/third of the album is possibly the strongest Nightwish sequence since 2007 (I found the Imaginaerum sequencing to be a bit lacking, myself – I think I already mentioned it in the ranking game).
Although the „Humankind, reconciled, human child, undefiled“ chorus is a bit weird and because of the mix and everything, I head Floor yelling „genocide!“ randomly there, which kinda gave me yet more Jansenvibes, but no, no, the actual lyrics are 100% pure Tuomas, for better or worse.


Next comes the Kamelot song:
The Day Of...
Wow. Kudos for something this unusual to be a second single. Am I the only one who hears the Karelot vibes? (or maybe it's just the children choirs and the vaguely gothic atmosphere).
EDIT: no, fuck, it's because the chorus goes "We are the ill-starred kids of your junkyard" - it obviously reminds you of "We are the last to walk the Earth // And watch the passing ages slowly sail", especially with the children there.

Again, Anette-era vibe, both with the weirdness and the atmosphere. After the first listen, I can't help it, I'm liking this a lot.
my feelings are still more or less the same, I like it quite a lot.

And Perfume
Perfume - as I've unfortunately played the song on PC at work, I couldn't shake off the feeling the intro felt like a YouTube ad that started before the song, you know Hero Wars or Royal Match or something.
I know the background vocals in the subdued section are supposed to bring Our Decades to mind, but I just couldn't help but think of HammerFall.
But that's nitpicking and me being caustic, I admit that I mostly like it.

Then the verse began and (it has Anette-era vibes)

I suppose both songs do, if you told me Perfume was a DPP/Imaginaerum outtake that's been dusted off and repurposed for the Floor era, I'd believe you. The chorus sounds slightly more like a current-era NW song, but I still feel Anette era through and through. It's probably not 100% fresh melodically, but I'm lazy to think about where I heard the elements before, but purely going on gut feeling, the first impression is that they sound the freshest in the past 13 years, even if it is a step back.
(although the orchestration is a tad overblown and kinda drowns the song, but still)
The outro is nice, but overdone. ESPECIALLY with the intro
I guess I just got used to Perfume even more since it came out, I was singing the chorus to myself and enjoyed it very much, actually.


Sway is the first truly subdued moment off the record and a rather nice one. This is probably what Harvest should have been, cheesy, but tolerable. I actually enjoyed this fist moment of gentleness, although the choir interlude (and to a degree, the pseudo-world-music outro) is superfluous, it could have remained in the acoustic ballad genre, à la The Islander. And I really miss Marco here, more than ever.

The Children Of’Ata begins with some more searching for your spirit animal and some really wack synth sound and … is that a dance beat? Fuck, the combination sounds like Karma (the Croatian band). The song proper is better although kinda unmemorable. There’s some heaviness, some choirs, some drama, but honestly feels more like an interlude than Troy’s noodling after Ocean. Oh, wait, there actually is a chorus, but you actually notice only at the very end of the track. It’s … kinda okay, I guess.

Something Whispered Follow Me – the beginning reminds of something really much, the strumming, the soaring guitar … I’m feeling some classic rock vibes, but I can’t quite put my finger on it. I’m liking it, though. With how Emppu returns between the verses, it gives off almost a bit doomy/gothic vibes, which I’m quite happy about; the verses are a bit more run of the mill, but tolerable, as far as Floorwish goes. The chorus again gives off late-Tarja-era / Anette-era feel, it reminds me possibly of yet another song (I’m not even sure if a NW song or by a different band altogether), but I’m having a dumb day, so once again I don’t know which one. Again, Marco is sorely missed, on the chorus he’d be perfect. The outro is a bit overlong, but it’s also one of the few moments that feels mostly Floor on the record, so I’ll allow it. In general it’s one of the better songs on the album.

Spider Silk begins as a piano ballad, which by this time on the album felt like a bit too much, although I'd say it sounds really nice on its own. I particularly like Floor's voice here, despite it sounding possibly most idiosyncratically hers so far. The song soon gets going though, thankfully. There's definitely some Tuomas' self-plagiarism, but I'm too lazy to think of the specific song again (it sounds a bit like a radio version of The Poet and the Pendulum, maybe? Which was already a regurgitation of ... eh, I don't remember, whatever). Like I said at the beginning, Kai kinda makes this song for me and I'm vibing with the instrumental part quite well. Again, more of a banger than not, although it might not shine as brightly as the songs from the beginning of the album. And again, that might be merely because it comes in so late. Outro is once again overdone, oh come on already with that.

Hiraeth - okay, this is a ballad for a much longer section of the song (felt like most, from the first listen, but again, I'm going by memory), with frantic and heavier second part. I don't particularly like the melodies/sound in the gentle part, but I don't shudder with revulsion like with Harvest. Also, the soft part could be slightly shorter. The second part (which absolutely slaps) could remain going and not again ground to a halt after a short while with some Troy Troyisms and acoustics and Floorwhispers, but thankfully it starts going again - though in a different direction, it doesn't return to that absolutely invigorating, thrilling section (that might be among my favourite parts of the album, short as it is).
With just a slight tweaks, this could have been a 10/10 song for me, as it is, it's like, good, but not exactly there. Still, 100x better than what I expected from this incarnation of Nightwish.

The Weave - some untrivial vocal lines, some whimsical flutes, overall it's kind of a mess and I don't remember much of it, but that's okay, as the clocks tick off the one-hour mark, we're nearing the bonus track territory anyway.

Lanternlight - Purely title-wise, this was the song I was looking forward the most (I don't know about you, but as the September nears its end, I could definitely use some "lanternlight" meself), and ... well, it's another ballad, and not even the Meadows of Heaven type. Oh, well. It's mostly nice, I guess, gives off these vibes of closing credits oscar bait track from the late 90s, but I suppose Tuomas would take that as a compliment. It's kinda overlong too, but by this time you can either fall asleep (unless you're driving, like I was, heh) or turn off the album. The ending in general reminded me of Gilmour's On an Island - a nice album, but very much a moody-evening-type one (a "album for a shag" you might say) and not something you'd put on that often, though tasteful.


As of now, I'm thinking possibly 7/10? If this came out in 2015 instead of EFMB and with Marco to boot, it'd be 8-9/10 at least.
 
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The album feels really front-heavy, not necessarily in terms of quality (although that too, maybe), but energy-/memorability- wise.
There’s a lot more I’d comment on in your post but I’m gonna wait till I’ve spun the album several more times. That said, I actually think the magic of the album truly blossoms when it digs in in that back half. “Something Whispered Follow Me”, “Spider Silk”, and “The Weave” especially… holy fuck man, I fell in love with Nightwish all over again. (Although that occurred during “Ocean of Strange Islands” too lol.)
 
Have listened to the album once.
When this band hits the mark i believe no other band comes close to the musical pleasure nightwish can offer.

Favourite songs so far:
Perfume of the timeless
Ocean of strange islands
Something whispered follow me
 
Listened for the first time last night. Not blown away (yet), but it's definitely much better than Human/Nature.
The mixing is a bit weird when it comes to the vocals; they are really muffled. Floor sounds good though. Troy's voice does absolutely nothing for me, and Marko is obviously missed.
"Sway" is the worst track, and I'm not sold on "The Day of..." either.
On the other hand, I quite like "Ocean of Strange Islands", "The Antikythera Mechanism" and "The Weave" (is it just me, or is there a very subtle reference to "In the Hall of the Mountain King" in the verses?)
Will have to spin it a few more times.
 
There’s a lot more I’d comment on in your post but I’m gonna wait till I’ve spun the album several more times. That said, I actually think the magic of the album truly blossoms when it digs in in that back half. “Something Whispered Follow Me”, “Spider Silk”, and “The Weave” especially… holy fuck man, I fell in love with Nightwish all over again. (Although that occurred during “Ocean of Strange Islands” too lol.)

Perhaps I misspoke - I meant more that the songs in the second half will take more to stand out for me, as usual (most NW albums are like that), but that doesn't necessarily imply lesser quality. Like I mentioned, same with U2 - Exit or Red Hill Mining Town are possibly my favourite tracks off Joshua Tree, but it took, like, seven listens to even notice either for me at first.
 
First of all, those that were complaining about the mixing since the first two songs came out, well, I can hear it now. The mix is really weird and I just don’t get it how the longer the bands are in the business, the worse their albums sound. And it’s not production, as I’ve seen said, but precisely mixing that’s complete shit, furthermore inconsistent over the album?
This is especially weird considering that the album is mixed and mastered by the exact same men who have worked with Nightwish (and most of the other popular Finnish metal bands) since the 90s.
 
Regarding the production, the orchestrations have gotten better and obviously they're using real orchestras/choirs. It's harder to mix with those elements included and the orchestra and voice fighting for space. I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt that getting a balance with so many moving parts was just very challenging for the producers and with time/budgets being finite this is what we ended up with.

Overall I enjoy the album more than Human. I think it lacks a lot of focus and I miss the tight songwriting/riffing found on Endless Forms Most Beautiful. They're trying more experimental things which is cool, but I'm not sure if it pays off every time. On the flip side, I have no desire to listen to Human Nature ever again but will probably keep this one in the rotation and see if it grows on me. Some of the singles off this album hit very hard.

Moving this from the RFYL discussion since it's more on topic here:
As for Nightwish, I imagine not touring it is probably a band preservation measure, since Tuomas mentioned recently he's going to start working on the third Auri album and would likely tour that. Maybe Floor doesn't want to tour as much anymore with two kids at home...hard to say. But, an album on its own from them was obviously worth investing in it for Nuclear Blast.
It's possible. My baseless speculation is that this will be the last album with Floor and the band will fizzle out. I think they got hit pretty hard by COVID which interrupted a lot of the momentum from their Decades world tour and prevented them from touring the followup album. Where other similarly sized bands are recouping their losses by touring extensively, Nightwish is unceremoniously dropping an album and nobody will remember it by the time they actually tour again (if they ever do). I think it's a huge error when they were building a ton of momentum with Floor in the band.
 
Regarding the production, the orchestrations have gotten better and obviously they're using real orchestras/choirs. It's harder to mix with those elements included and the orchestra and voice fighting for space. I'm willing to give it the benefit of the doubt that getting a balance with so many moving parts was just very challenging for the producers and with time/budgets being finite this is what we ended up with.

Haven't they been using real orchestras/choirs since ... Century Child (IIRC)? My point is that every album so far (including H:N, which had other problems) did sound more or less good, great even, all things considered; this is the first album where the mixing sounds like complete shite, which - combined with
This is especially weird considering that the album is mixed and mastered by the exact same men who have worked with Nightwish (and most of the other popular Finnish metal bands) since the 90s.
- seems downright bizarre. Not just weird and bad, but - if I can believe my memory of a single full listen - inconsistent throughout the album, even.

Considering what Kid says, it almost gives me the vibes of half-deaf 'Arry overruling the producer on mastering (although to everyone's credit, while some of the latter albums also have serious flaws from the sound point of view, no other album has sounded like the abomination that was Dance of Death, so even he probably realised it, kinda).
Or Lars pulling a prank on the new bloke and making the base inaudible; I put this recently in the Tullica thread and it's worth a watch, merely on the geeky/mixing side of thing, which is something I don't understand all that well and yet found fascinating here

I found this video cool, especially as it's a bit more in-depth than just the usual "put the base back", I found it quite interesting.

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It's possible. My baseless speculation is that this will be the last album with Floor and the band will fizzle out. I think they got hit pretty hard by COVID which interrupted a lot of the momentum from their Decades world tour and prevented them from touring the followup album. Where other similarly sized bands are recouping their losses by touring extensively, Nightwish is unceremoniously dropping an album and nobody will remember it by the time they actually tour again (if they ever do). I think it's a huge error when they were building a ton of momentum with Floor in the band.

My absolutely insane and wrong reading of the situation - going off mostly on intuition, my "gut feeling" so to speak and taking into consideration that IMHO Tuomas is - just like me - closer to being on the spectrum than the general populace is:

It's most likely not Floor and it's not Troy - who after collaborating with Iona and others must be really happy about being a part and touring a big band. I just think that Tuomas (and possibly Emppu) is burnt out and he doesn't feel like he can fake it, currently, even for the sake of the band. Which means a hiatus, but an indefinite one. My wild prediction is that unless we get some sort of reunion (and I won't dare to speculate on the scope), we quite likely won't be hearing from Nightwish anymore.

I find it rather weird, because while this seems like the hiatus they should have taken some time ago already - Jukka and Marko left for what boils down as burnout, whatever the actual singular reason is - they haven't had as strenuous arrangement as some other bands (Maiden included), with relatively quite a long time between both albums and tours.
But still, after the singers (which was his fault 100% and he must realise that), Tuomas has watched Jukka and Marko leave (the latter wasn't a founding member, but a pretty significant one for quite a long time, including their "classic" years) and while he still has his project with members that come and go, the cohesiveness (and maybe even some internal disharmony, which can be beneficial) has been lost.

(I still wonder if Paul had managed to contain himself and didn't push the band back into studio after the already heated White Album sessions (probably in order to save it, to boot) - and instead if the band went on a hiatus... might the Beatles might have continued into the 70s, maybe as a project of elderly gentlemen à la Crosby, Stills and Nash, but still continuing? Though that's kinda different, Nightwish are already kinda in the Paul with Wings phase, only with the rights to the original name.)

Furthermore, while he said nice things about that in the papers, IIRC, it must kinda sting that so soon after he left, Marko actually does want to do music and tour and even do Nightwish stuff (with Tarja, to boot) - just not with Tuomas. Explain that away how you will, that must feel like a punch to the gut. (Although the basic hiatus idea has predated that, if I'm not remembering wrong).

I'd personally also be a bit depressed in that situation --- and wanted to take a break.

Leaving the fans with an album for the hiatus is a nice gesture, actually, and one which I'd do as well. Yeah, this is not usually done - it's not clever, business-wise, but I like that Tuomas' idiosyncracies actually help him do something differently.
 
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Don’t forget that they just signed a multi-album deal with Nuclear Blast. Of course this could mean some live albums or compilations but I’d rather remain optimistic. Maybe the band takes a lengthy hiatus now, they all have their own projects they can work on in the meantime. I don’t see them splitting up so much as, if anything, quietly dissolving. But it could also be that touring is too much for them as a bigger act and instead they just do studio work. If that means more music at the level of quality that they’ve been able to hit, by all means bring it on. We’ll see what happens.
 
I think its in this video - the guy is friends with someone in Nightwish crew and has apparently confirmed that 2027 is the target year for live shows.

 

I mean....okay, come on, my dude.

The band was certainly touring an insane amount when Floor first joined the band. But they've had a ton more downtime than many other bands.

- Wrapping up the Imaginearum tour was a big year from 2012-2013.
- (two years off from touring)
- The EFMB tour was absolutely bonkers. 151 shows over a year and a half.
- (a year and a half off from touring with no new album recording)
- Decades tour was pretty big, 9 months long.
- (a year and a half with no touring, record a new album, pandemic hits so another year and a half without touring)
- H::N tour was their shortest ever, especially with all the cancelled dates (some due to Floor's illness and healing, some due to lingering pandemic stuff, some due to Russia being a bunch of shitbags)

Now, I assume Marko leaving and all of the dates being cancelled was its own type of mentally fatiguing, but if Floor (who has undergone massive health issues and had two children recently) is saying she doesn't agree with the hiatus I'm just calling bullshit on this whole thing. I think Tuomas is just bored with it.
 
+ That quote in the article was so much rambling nonsense. IDK how you can read recent press from the band and expect that there is any realistic intention of them ever playing together again.

I actually agree with Judas' prediction that the only way we see Nightwish together again is some sort of reunion situation with Marko and Tarja back in the band. Not sure what the interpersonal relationships are like but some sort of gimmick (like a late 20th anniversary of Once celebration) is probably what's needed to get them on the road again. It's clearly a Tuomas problem and he probably has to be pushed to make it happen. I also think some members in the current band are eventually going to get tired of waiting around for Tuomas before splitting off into their own projects.
 
The two Floor albums are opposites for me - I have no patience for Human II Nature, but EFMB might be my favourite album the band have done. I've not had the chance to listen to the new album in full yet, but I'm quietly hoping this one is closer to the latter.
 
The two Floor albums are opposites for me - I have no patience for Human II Nature, but EFMB might be my favourite album the band have done. I've not had the chance to listen to the new album in full yet, but I'm quietly hoping this one is closer to the latter.
I’m 100% with you and feel Yesterwynde is somewhere in the middle. It’s musically closer to Human for me but fixes a lot of the problems that album had. Not as good as Endless Forms but I think would have been considered more than a worthy follow up had it been released instead of Human.
 
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