Metallica

I hear what you're saying Eddie but I think Metallica is one of those bands that, I wouldn't say needs a more pro-active guy like Bob Rock, but I think it is certainly beneficiary for them. Metallica has enough yes men around them already - leave it up to them and they just want to do whatever the hell they think is risky and new at the time. They need someone to take them down to earth once in a while and I think Bob Rock was good at that. They need a guy that will tell them to "cut the crap, I know what's best for you and how to make this album sound great, just trust in me and lets go!" :D
 
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EddieoftheOpera said:
But like I said that's all he needs to do really. His mixing job was poor, that can be said but as far as organising the band, he did all that was required of him and got them to make some good metal music. I personally enjoy Death Magnetic yet can understand and to some extent agree with all your complaints. But I don't think Rick should be blamed.
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Having a heart to heart chat with the band and then being virtually nonexistent during the writing and recording process? No. That's not a producer's job, that's absolutely the least of what is required of him. That's some prima donna, egotistical swami bullshit. A producer's job is to listen, critique, embolden, and actually be present to share opinions. Rick Rubin has become a bloated, lazy hack.

SixesAlltheway said:
I hear what you're saying Eddie but I think Metallica is one of those bands that, I wouldn't say needs a more pro-active guy like Bob Rock, but I think it is certainly beneficiary for them. Metallica has enough yes men around them already - leave it up to them and they just want to do whatever the hell they think is risky and new at the time. They need someone to take them down to earth once in a while and I think Bob Rock was good at that. They need a guy to tell them to "cut the crap and I know what's best for you" once in awhile :D
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Exactly. Metallica needs someone to guide them during the songwriting. They definitely got stale with Bob Rock and needed someone new, but Rick Rubin was not the answer.
 
SixesAlltheway said:
I hear what you're saying Eddie but I think Metallica is one of those bands that, I wouldn't say needs a more pro-active guy like Bob Rock, but I think it is certainly beneficiary for them. Metallica has enough yes men around them already - leave it up to them and they just want to do whatever the hell they think is risky and new at the time. They need someone to take them down to earth once in a while and I think Bob Rock was good at that. They need a guy that will tell them to "cut the crap, I know what's best for you and how to make this album sound great" once in awhile :D
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I think Rock was excellent at that on The Black Album but after that, I think he got lazy. The band were clearly tired of being Metallica, and The Black Album was already lacking a metal punch as is, so instead of Rock suggesting them to suck it up, do some side-projects and get back to being the best metal band in the world, he just went well "they're even less metal now, and I don't really have a metal pedigree so let's pan this out". I think with Magnetic the band did know what was best for them at that point, make an awesome metal album in the same vein of their 80s stuff but with elements of everything they've done since. Knowing Rubin, i'd imagine he actually see that as the best thing they could do. I also imagine they chose because they wanted to get back to basics and thought he'd allow them that. Magnetic wasn't executed as excellently as it could have been with a more forthright producer, but certain producers could have been a bit too forthright and told them to do something super experimental which just wouldn't be right. The next album, i'd suggest getting a more forthright producer yes. I just don't see much of an issue with what Rubin did.

MrKnickerbocker said:
Having a heart to heart chat with the band and then being virtually nonexistent during the writing and recording process? No. That's not a producer's job, that's absolutely the least of what is required of him. That's some prima donna, egotistical swami bullshit. A producer's job is to listen, critique, embolden, and actually be present to share opinions. Rick Rubin has become a bloated, lazy hack.
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That's not A producer's job, but it his the way he works. Is that the correct way to work? No. But I think it works with certain bands.
 
EddieoftheOpera said:
I think Rock was excellent at that on The Black Album but after that, I think he got lazy. The band were clearly tired of being Metallica, and The Black Album was already lacking a metal punch as is, so instead of Rock suggesting them to suck it up, do some side-projects and get back to being the best metal band in the world, he just went well "they're even less metal now, and I don't really have a metal pedigree so let's pan this out". I think with Magnetic the band did know what was best for them at that point, make an awesome metal album in the same vein of their 80s stuff but with elements of everything they've done since. Knowing Rubin, i'd imagine he actually see that as the best thing they could do. I also imagine they chose because they wanted to get back to basics and thought he'd allow them that. Magnetic wasn't executed as excellently as it could have been with a more forthright producer, but certain producers could have been a bit too forthright and told them to do something super experimental which just wouldn't be right. The next album, i'd suggest getting a more forthright producer yes. I just don't see much of an issue with what Rubin did.
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The producer can reign in songwriting or push the band a little further, but we can't blame Bob Rock for the music the band was writing. It was very obvious that James wanted to do something different with Load/ReLoad. Bob could sway them in one way or another, but it's not like he told the band, "Stop playing metal and go write a country song." James just showed up playing Mama Said and Lars said, "Let's try recording that."

Getting back to basics is fine, but these guys are not the same people they were 10, 20, or 30 years ago. They're not going to write the same kind of music. What they're going to do if left to their own devices is attempt to write in an old style that doesn't really fit their personalities anymore. And what you end up with is an album full of cool riffs and decent ideas, but no ear for song structure or melody. This is what happens when a band is severely out of practice when it comes to songwriting. Metallica is still firing on all cylinders as a live band, but they have not kept up in the songwriting department. Death Magnetic is a cool album, but it sounds like a bunch of guys trying to remember how to write songs. They needed someone who was more present and capable of listening to different parts, cutting what needed to be cut, and enhancing the overall song.

EDIT: And I'm not saying Bob Rock would have been better, he was clearly checked out and/or out of ideas by the time St. Anger rolled around. But they needed someone who was present.

EddieoftheOpera said:
That's not A producer's job, but it his the way he works. Is that the correct way to work? No. But I think it works with certain bands.
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I agree, I just don't think Metallica is one of those bands.
 
Right. In my mind - I think they just wanted a name in Rubin and I'm sure because Hetfield or Lars or whatever wanted to work with this guy for a long time because he's the legend that he is and it would send a good signal and so so...Nothing signals "Hey, we're a metal band again" more than hiring Rubin I guess. Well, wrong. If anything, it just shows how left behind Metallica really is. If they really wanted to make that statement that "We want to be a metal band" again they should have gone out and picked someone with a finger on the pulse so to speak. Perhaps a more up and coming metal producer or someone who's consistently turned out great efforts in the last 10-15 years. Devin Townsend, Logan Madder, and who else do we have. Rubin is a legend but he's also past his prime.
 
SixesAlltheway said:
Right. In my mind - I think they just wanted a name in Rubin and I'm sure because Hetfield or Lars or whatever wanted to work with this guy for a long time because he's the legend that he is and it would send a good signal and so so...Nothing signals "Hey, we're a metal band again" more than hiring Rubin I guess. Well, wrong. If anything, it just shows how left behind Metallica really is. If they really wanted to make that statement that "We want to be a metal band" again they should have gone out and picked someone with a finger on the pulse so to speak. Perhaps a more up and coming metal producer or someone who's been consistently turned out great efforts in the last 10-15 years. Devin Townsend, Logan Madder, and who else do we have. Rubin is a legend but he's also past his prime.
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Precisely. I don't always love his output, but I'd love to see what would happen if Metallica worked with Steven Wilson.
 
MrKnickerbocker said:
The producer can reign in songwriting or push the band a little further, but we can't blame Bob Rock for the music the band was writing. It was very obvious that James wanted to do something different with Load/ReLoad. Bob could sway them in one way or another, but it's not like he told the band, "Stop playing metal and go write a country song." James just showed up playing Mama Said and Lars said, "Let's try recording that."
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I'm not disputing that, and I like "Mama Said" but if Rock gave them a bit of a direction to beef up a song like "Aint My Bitch", than I would have had a great deal of respect for him.

MrKnickerbocker said:
Getting back to basics is fine, but these guys are not the same people they were 10, 20, or 30 years ago. They're not going to write the same kind of music. What they're going to do if left to their own devices is attempt to write in an old style that doesn't really fit their personalities anymore. And what you end up with is an album full of cool riffs and decent ideas, but no ear for song structure or melody. This is what happens when a band is severely out of practice when it comes to songwriting. Metallica is still firing on all cylinders as a live band, but they have not kept up in the songwriting department. Death Magnetic is a cool album, but it sounds like a bunch of guys trying to remember how to write songs. They needed someone who was more present and capable of listening to different parts, cutting what needed to be cut, and enhancing the overall song.
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If it's a cool album, than what's the big deal? I'm just glad they've done a consistently enjoyable album for the first time since 1991, filled with great riffs and structures that I can easily tolerate. I don't care if Hetfield's vocals aren't as on point or that they sound older, I just wanted a good metal record. Hopefully the next album has a better producer with better ideas like you said, but I just don't see the need to complain, because I had fun listening to that album and more than happy to play several of the songs again. I see where you going with this, but I don't see a problem.

SixesAlltheway said:
Right. In my mind - I think they just wanted a name in Rubin and I'm sure because Hetfield or Lars or whatever wanted to work with this guy for a long time because he's the legend that he is and it would send a good signal and so so...Nothing signals "Hey, we're a metal band again" more than hiring Rubin I guess. Well, wrong. If anything, it just shows how left behind Metallica really is. If they really wanted to make that statement that "We want to be a metal band" again they should have gone out and picked someone with a finger on the pulse so to speak. Perhaps a more up and coming metal producer or someone who's consistently turned out great efforts in the last 10-15 years. Devin Townsend, Logan Madder, and who else do we have. Rubin is a legend but he's also past his prime.
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That I can agree with, but I do feel Magnetic is a metal album, regardless of what anyone is.
 
Pretty much what Knick and Sixes said. It's fair if you like the album as it is and fwiw I think it's way ahead of what they were doing before, but they're still far from the great metal band that they once were. It's a step in the right direction, but I think the next step is to get a producer who will help them focus their songwriting, because nothing on DM is focused. I love the ideas on that album, they just need to be organized better.
 
Mosh said:
Pretty much what Knick and Sixes said. It's fair if you like the album as it is and fwiw I think it's way ahead of what they were doing before, but they're still far from the great metal band that they once were. It's a step in the right direction, but I think the next step is to get a producer who will help them focus their songwriting, because nothing on DM is focused. I love the ideas on that album, they just need to be organized better.
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Fair enough, but I don't think they'll ever be the great metal band they once were. I was able to accept that, and I loved Death Magnetic for what it was. I mean I don't listen to it often but as a loyally devoted Metallica fan, it made me very, very happy listening to it. I would agree with what they should do on the next album but as long as I have a blast listen to it, i'm happy.
 
You're right but I think they're at least capable of making one really strong album before their career ends.

Anyway, this discussion made me throw on Death Magnetic. Despite the songs being bloated and way too loud, it's still enjoyable.
 
Mosh said:
You're right but I think they're at least capable of making one really strong album before their career ends.

Anyway, this discussion made me throw on Death Magnetic. Despite the songs being bloated and way too loud, it's still enjoyable.
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I'd recommend giving the Guitar Hero III mix of the album a listen, which is available f0r torrent downloading. You could argue it's too quiet, but it's still better produced IMO. And I would entirely agree.
 
Mosh said:
I'll take quiet over compressed to the point of fatigue any day. I'll have to check that out.
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Yeah, quiet is much better. The only version of DM I listen to now is that because I don't my brain to explode when shuffling through tracks. Definitely give it a look.
 
EddieoftheOpera said:
Fair enough, but I don't think they'll ever be the great metal band they once were. I was able to accept that, and I loved Death Magnetic for what it was. I mean I don't listen to it often but as a loyally devoted Metallica fan, it made me very, very happy listening to it. I would agree with what they should do on the next album but as long as I have a blast listen to it, i'm happy.
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I know what you mean. A friend and I had a listening party back in 2008 for Death Magnetic and we're both old friends and Metallica fans. To hear Metallica play that thrashy style again which they hadn't done since well...the 20 year older Justice album was well...Fantastic!! But with the critical glasses on, it's a very unfocused album, like Mosh said.
 
SixesAlltheway said:
I know what you mean. A friend and I had a listening party back in 2008 for Death Magnetic and we're both old friends and Metallica fans. To hear Metallica play that thrashy style again which they hadn't done since well...the 20 year older Justice album was well...Fantastic!! But with the critical glasses on, it's a very unfocused album, like Mosh said.
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And I can't argue with that but it's not unfocused enough to frustrate me. Keep in mind, that i'm here to give me a social environment when i'm by myself and to to vent my musical opinions, on Maiden and not Maiden. I'm not the die-hard Maiden fan many others here are. I am however a rabid Metallica fan. Shortly after i'd drowned myself in classic rock early in my teen years, I discovered Metallica. Having been mostly miserable at the time, that kind of adrenaline rush is what I needed. I liked Black Sabbath already because of their classic rock crossover appeal, and i'd listened to some Rob Zombie here and there which appealed to me rhythmically but I just had begun to feel a bit of exuberance from that stuff as I listened to more of it and Metallica came to me just in time. And they were quite unlike anything else in my repertoire. It was such a release of anger and frustration, bringing a smile to my face and a speed to my pulse at the same time. That's exactly what I needed at that time in my life. So it made a HUGE impact on me and ate, drank and slept Metallica for about a good year. I'm currently ordering the box set to Live Shit: Binge and Purge, after having just listened to the MP3 which I very much enjoyed. Getting to read through the giant booklet, and hold the big flight-case box set is something that i'm very excited to do. And even though Lars has gone downhill as a drummer, I would love to see them live before their career ends. It would bring me so much joy and glee to see them a couple hundred miles in front of me playing some of my all time favourites songs at a humongous volume. It's fair to say that Maiden, Slayer and if you count them as metal than Rush, are the three metal bands with the most rabid fanbases. But Metallica have always been a band that felt mine.

So now that my huge tangent is over, I think it's fair to say that DM made me very happy listening to it. That's all that should matter. I'm not gonna contextualise it to make me like it less.
 
I think everyone here can nod in agreement with what you just said about Metallica entering their life and making a big impact..basically forming their teenage years..That's why they are one of , if not the biggest metal band on the planet. Everyone has a run-in with Metallica somewhere in their life.

That's fair enough but I also want them to do good and put out quality stuff. Was Death Magnetic better than Sgt. Anger? Hell yeah.. but can they do much better? Hell yeah ;)
 
SixesAlltheway said:
I think everyone here can nod in agreement with what you just said about Metallica entering their life and making a big impact..basically forming their teenage years..That's why they are one of , if not the biggest metal band on the planet. Everyone has a run-in with Metallica somewhere in their life.

That's fair enough but I also want them to do good and put out quality stuff. Was Death Magnetic better than Sgt. Anger? Hell yeah.. but can they do much better? Hell yeah ;)
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I suppose so, just enjoyed it a lot myself.
 
Well now I have a headache and I'm pretty sure Death Magnetic is at least partially responsible. :D

It's a good album, my favorite sinc And Justice For All. It makes me excited for what they're capable of doing next with the right direction.
 
Mosh said:
Well now I have a headache and I'm pretty sure Death Magnetic is at least partially responsible. :D

It's a good album, my favorite sinc And Justice For All. It makes me excited for what they're capable of doing next with the right direction.
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Not sure what I prefer, The Black Album or Death Magnetic, but certainly their best in a long time. Glad to hear it's grown on you.
 
Not a fan of The Black album. They pretty much lost me at that point.
 
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