Jazz?

Forostar

Ancient Mariner
That is the worst advice I have ever read on this forum. I totally disagree. Thousand percent. I enjoyed most if not all releases with headphones. We're talking about Van Gelder and I love separation personally. Perfect match. For me jazz is a lot about recognizing and enjoying individual contributions (Individuals are often mentioned on album covers as well). The music breathes with space in between instruments. I like to and can focus very well on drums, which is most important for me. I started to like jazz because of the great drummers. Drums on the side have a large audio spectrum range and the playing and sound, especially cymbals, can be heard very well this way. With headphones there's more focus, more to be deduced; more ear for detail (hello Lewis Porter), more enjoyment.

On Van Gelder's sound, I found some content that IMO really can be heard best by using headphones:



While recording at a high level, with only two microphones on a stand, Van Gelder managed to get a clarity from the drums and bass that no one else had. In fact, he caught the sound of an entire rhythm section – bass, piano and drums – in proper perspective, something other engineers hadn’t thought possible. Using real and electronic echo, Van Gelder pulled sound and power from horn players unheard of outside of live performance. When Van Gelder moved to Englewood he built an elaborate studio with churchlike ceilings and cross-beams. By this point, he’d dropped the optometry.





Van Gelder always got spectacular performance in the high end from his gear, which was obviously most evident in the cymbals on his recordings. From what I've heard (with my ears), recording technology didn't really hit its full stride with high fidelity and full-range frequency response until around 1955, but regardless he was always a frontrunner with respect to this.

Although I usually prefer mono mixes of his stuff, if I want to hear the detail and intricacies of the drums (for any jazz recording really), stereo listening with headphonesis definitely the way to go.





... the one thing that I've felt Van Gelder really captured when almost nobody else was doing it was the full power of the drumkit. The way he recorded Tony Williams and Elvin Jones and Max Roach - those recordings sound like real drumkits, and the simulated sound of a lot of drum recordings has always been a pet peeve of mine (and carries on to even the jazz recordings of the 2000s, by the way). Inevitably, when I want to hear a fifties or sixties recording with 'real' drums, I put on something RVG did.





I'm very fond of the drum sound, and especially the clarity and airiness of the ride cymbal sound, on albums like Smokin' by Miles Davis and Somethin' Else by Miles Davis Cannonball Adderly. It's not a big or showy or in-your-face sound, but it's very clean and natural sounding, and sympathetic to the music, IMO.
 
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Forostar

Ancient Mariner
I didn't mean to come across as to (be) offend(ed). I simply disagree that headphones is a bad thing, when stuff is panned to one side. I don't need to put the volume that hard to hear it well (not that hard that the sax hurt my ears). ;)

Anyway, I like how this thread is revived!

May I ask how you browse/discover through jazz? I started by searching for albums on which Elvin Jones played. And other drummers, like Art Blakey and Max Roach. Tony Williams and several others. Also, many McTyner albums are really nice.
 

Forostar

Ancient Mariner
What ya think?
I can respect Coltrane's urge to try and go farther and push the limits, but I don't really enjoy it. To me it seems like this is the album he started to give up some musicality in order to become more 'modern'. Interestingly, McCoy and Elvin didn't like it either and left soon afterwards (which Coltrane was upset and just really sad about).
I really like it. I like to hear the differences in style of soloing and I love the drums underneath. There are several cool outburst. Also the way the ensemble goes (as if feels suddenly) back to the theme, I like those changes.

Ascencion is from June 1965. I don't think Elvin and McCoy didn't like it.

Afterwards they still did:

1965-07-02 New Thing at Newport (split LP with Archie Shepp) McCoy Tyner, Jimmy Garrison, Elvin Jones (John Coltrane's set) 1965
1965-08-26 Sun Ship
1965-09-02 First Meditations (for quartet)
1965-09-02 part of Infinity (the song Joy recorded with the quartet)
1965-09-30 Live in Seattle McCoy Tyner, Jimmy Garrison, Elvin Jones, Donald Garrett, Pharoah Sanders
1965-10-01 Om McCoy Tyner, Jimmy Garrison, Elvin Jones, Donald Garrett, Pharoah Sanders, Joe Brazil
1965-10-14 part of Kulu Sé Mama 2 tracks recorded with McCoy Tyner, Jimmy Garrison, Elvin Jones, Pharoah Sanders, Donald Rafael Garrett, Frank Butler, Juno Lewis

If I remember well: yes they indeed preferred the quartet stuff but were still very much involved. It really changed when the second drummer arrived.
That's when they probably didn't like it anymore:

1965-11-23 Meditations McCoy Tyner, Jimmy Garrison, Elvin Jones, Pharoah Sanders, Rashied Ali
By late 1965, Coltrane was regularly augmenting his group with Sanders and other free jazz musicians. Rashied Ali joined the group as a second drummer. This was the end of the quartet; claiming he was unable to hear himself over the two drummers, Tyner left the band shortly after the recording of Meditations. Jones left in early 1966, dissatisfied by sharing drumming duties with Ali.
 
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Forostar

Ancient Mariner
Hi Jazz, please check my previous post, you might have just missed it. Will react to your vids later!
 

Deus_Adrian

Prince of the Final Frontier
I didn't mean to come across as to (be) offend(ed). I simply disagree that headphones is a bad thing, when stuff is panned to one side. I don't need to put the volume that hard to hear it well (not that hard that the sax hurt my ears). ;)

Anyway, I like how this thread is revived!

May I ask how you browse/discover through jazz? I started by searching for albums on which Elvin Jones played. And other drummers, like Art Blakey and Max Roach. Tony Williams and several others. Also, many McTyner albums are really nice.
Get the Max Roach Mosiac boxed set if you havent already. Essential.
 

Mosh

The years just pass like trains
Staff member
@Mosh, I think the 60s records came out in stereo originally, sometimes mono versions and different version anyway. Which ones were remixed?
OK didn't realize you were talking about the 60s albums specifically. I was just thinking about what he recorded before the technology came about.

That aside, I like to go for speakers when listening to Jazz. I guess it really comes down to the equipment you have and the quality of stereo mixing.
 

Forostar

Ancient Mariner
Get the Max Roach Mosiac boxed set if you havent already. Essential.
Thanks for the tip @Deus! I love such boxes not only for the music but also for the liner notes. I still hope to find the Elvin Jones mosaic box as well. I do own the McCoy Tyner one.

I have a couple of other (more simple) Max Roach boxes and some separate albums.

Am I right in saying that these albums are covered by the box you are talking about? Please add or remove so that I can see which albums I miss at the moment.




His work with Cllifford Brown and/or Sonny Rollins is at least as (or even more imo) essential:

Brown:
Rollins:
 

Deus_Adrian

Prince of the Final Frontier
Yeah, but what about Cubano Chant? Too much Latin? Not serious enough?
I think the intro in the first version is very clever rhythmically.

Anyways, that's some more avantgarde stuff I like, Tim Berne, New York school around John Zorn. I like this album:

And, of course, Steve Coleman. I enjoy this album:

If you're looking for more 'kind-of-coming-from-the-old-school', one of the most important drummers is missing in your drummers list: Jack DeJohnette. He's one of the greats, up there with Tony and Elvin.
Ive see Jack up pretty close.

The best. Bar none.
 

Forostar

Ancient Mariner
If all goes well I'll go to a Jazz festival in July with McCoy Tyner, Wayne Shorter, Tomasz Stańko and Enrico Rava (on the same day)!
:dancinggeek:
 

JudasMyGuide

...quite like the Jack of Hearts...
Indeed. In fact, with SD it's absolutely essential to get some background info for pretty much everything. "When you put me on the Wolverine up to Annandale" - especially nowadays when the train Wolverine does not go to neither New York or Annandale, the song only gets more and more esoteric. :D
 

Mosh

The years just pass like trains
Staff member
Best addition for me is Chris Potter, I’ve been waiting a long time for him to get in Spotify.
 
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