Discussion in 'Music Discussion' started by Yax, Apr 5, 2009.

  1. Forostar

    Forostar Ancient Mariner

    That is the worst advice I have ever read on this forum. I totally disagree. Thousand percent. I enjoyed most if not all releases with headphones. We're talking about Van Gelder and I love separation personally. Perfect match. For me jazz is a lot about recognizing and enjoying individual contributions (Individuals are often mentioned on album covers as well). The music breathes with space in between instruments. I like to and can focus very well on drums, which is most important for me. I started to like jazz because of the great drummers. Drums on the side have a large audio spectrum range and the playing and sound, especially cymbals, can be heard very well this way. With headphones there's more focus, more to be deduced; more ear for detail (hello Lewis Porter), more enjoyment.

    On Van Gelder's sound, I found some content that IMO really can be heard best by using headphones:

    While recording at a high level, with only two microphones on a stand, Van Gelder managed to get a clarity from the drums and bass that no one else had. In fact, he caught the sound of an entire rhythm section – bass, piano and drums – in proper perspective, something other engineers hadn’t thought possible. Using real and electronic echo, Van Gelder pulled sound and power from horn players unheard of outside of live performance. When Van Gelder moved to Englewood he built an elaborate studio with churchlike ceilings and cross-beams. By this point, he’d dropped the optometry.

    Van Gelder always got spectacular performance in the high end from his gear, which was obviously most evident in the cymbals on his recordings. From what I've heard (with my ears), recording technology didn't really hit its full stride with high fidelity and full-range frequency response until around 1955, but regardless he was always a frontrunner with respect to this.

    Although I usually prefer mono mixes of his stuff, if I want to hear the detail and intricacies of the drums (for any jazz recording really), stereo listening with headphonesis definitely the way to go.

    ... the one thing that I've felt Van Gelder really captured when almost nobody else was doing it was the full power of the drumkit. The way he recorded Tony Williams and Elvin Jones and Max Roach - those recordings sound like real drumkits, and the simulated sound of a lot of drum recordings has always been a pet peeve of mine (and carries on to even the jazz recordings of the 2000s, by the way). Inevitably, when I want to hear a fifties or sixties recording with 'real' drums, I put on something RVG did.

    I'm very fond of the drum sound, and especially the clarity and airiness of the ride cymbal sound, on albums like Smokin' by Miles Davis and Somethin' Else by Miles Davis Cannonball Adderly. It's not a big or showy or in-your-face sound, but it's very clean and natural sounding, and sympathetic to the music, IMO.
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2017
    Deus_Adrian likes this.
  2. Forostar

    Forostar Ancient Mariner

    I didn't mean to come across as to (be) offend(ed). I simply disagree that headphones is a bad thing, when stuff is panned to one side. I don't need to put the volume that hard to hear it well (not that hard that the sax hurt my ears). ;)

    Anyway, I like how this thread is revived!

    May I ask how you browse/discover through jazz? I started by searching for albums on which Elvin Jones played. And other drummers, like Art Blakey and Max Roach. Tony Williams and several others. Also, many McTyner albums are really nice.
    Deus_Adrian likes this.
  3. Mosh

    Mosh The years just pass like trains Staff Member

    @jazz from hell are you referring to albums recorded in mono and later remixed in stereo?
  4. Forostar

    Forostar Ancient Mariner

    I really like it. I like to hear the differences in style of soloing and I love the drums underneath. There are several cool outburst. Also the way the ensemble goes (as if feels suddenly) back to the theme, I like those changes.

    Ascencion is from June 1965. I don't think Elvin and McCoy didn't like it.

    Afterwards they still did:

    1965-07-02 New Thing at Newport (split LP with Archie Shepp) McCoy Tyner, Jimmy Garrison, Elvin Jones (John Coltrane's set) 1965
    1965-08-26 Sun Ship
    1965-09-02 First Meditations (for quartet)
    1965-09-02 part of Infinity (the song Joy recorded with the quartet)
    1965-09-30 Live in Seattle McCoy Tyner, Jimmy Garrison, Elvin Jones, Donald Garrett, Pharoah Sanders
    1965-10-01 Om McCoy Tyner, Jimmy Garrison, Elvin Jones, Donald Garrett, Pharoah Sanders, Joe Brazil
    1965-10-14 part of Kulu Sé Mama 2 tracks recorded with McCoy Tyner, Jimmy Garrison, Elvin Jones, Pharoah Sanders, Donald Rafael Garrett, Frank Butler, Juno Lewis

    If I remember well: yes they indeed preferred the quartet stuff but were still very much involved. It really changed when the second drummer arrived.
    That's when they probably didn't like it anymore:

    1965-11-23 Meditations McCoy Tyner, Jimmy Garrison, Elvin Jones, Pharoah Sanders, Rashied Ali
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2017
  5. Forostar

    Forostar Ancient Mariner

    Hi Jazz, please check my previous post, you might have just missed it. Will react to your vids later!
  6. Deus_Adrian

    Deus_Adrian Prince of the Final Frontier

    Get the Max Roach Mosiac boxed set if you havent already. Essential.
  7. Mosh

    Mosh The years just pass like trains Staff Member

    OK didn't realize you were talking about the 60s albums specifically. I was just thinking about what he recorded before the technology came about.

    That aside, I like to go for speakers when listening to Jazz. I guess it really comes down to the equipment you have and the quality of stereo mixing.
  8. Forostar

    Forostar Ancient Mariner

    Thanks for the tip @Deus! I love such boxes not only for the music but also for the liner notes. I still hope to find the Elvin Jones mosaic box as well. I do own the McCoy Tyner one.

    I have a couple of other (more simple) Max Roach boxes and some separate albums.

    Am I right in saying that these albums are covered by the box you are talking about? Please add or remove so that I can see which albums I miss at the moment.

    His work with Cllifford Brown and/or Sonny Rollins is at least as (or even more imo) essential:

    Deus_Adrian likes this.
  9. Mosh

    Mosh The years just pass like trains Staff Member

    Some really incredible drumming from Elvin, especially at the end.
    Forostar likes this.
  10. Deus_Adrian

    Deus_Adrian Prince of the Final Frontier

    Ive see Jack up pretty close.

    The best. Bar none.
    jazz from hell likes this.
  11. Forostar

    Forostar Ancient Mariner

  12. Forostar

    Forostar Ancient Mariner

    If all goes well I'll go to a Jazz festival in July with McCoy Tyner, Wayne Shorter, Tomasz Stańko and Enrico Rava (on the same day)!
    JudasMyGuide likes this.
  13. Who you going to see?
  14. Forostar

    Forostar Ancient Mariner

    All! There is one stage.
  15. terrell39

    terrell39 Ancient Mariner

  16. JudasMyGuide

    JudasMyGuide ...quite like the Jack of Hearts...

  17. terrell39

    terrell39 Ancient Mariner

  18. JudasMyGuide

    JudasMyGuide ...quite like the Jack of Hearts...

    Indeed. In fact, with SD it's absolutely essential to get some background info for pretty much everything. "When you put me on the Wolverine up to Annandale" - especially nowadays when the train Wolverine does not go to neither New York or Annandale, the song only gets more and more esoteric. :D
  19. Mosh

    Mosh The years just pass like trains Staff Member

    Best addition for me is Chris Potter, I’ve been waiting a long time for him to get in Spotify.

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