ISIS Thread

Is Turkey activating Article 5?

It would make sense. The enemy is much more clearly defined here than when the US did so in 2001. The 9/11 terrorists had support from Taliban, but it wasn't per se the Taliban that attacked the US. Still, article 5 applied, so I can't see why it wouldn't now.

(Of course, the 9/11 attacks were more severe, but my point still applies)
 
Is Turkey activating Article 5?

No and I don't see it happening unless Turkish Armed Forces fail to overwhelm ISIS on the border, which I also don't see happening.

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There was a story about how the foreign media portrays the events on tonight's news. If foreign media tells you that "Turkey has realized something needed to be done", "Turkey decided to fight ISIS", "Turkey is taking on a game-changer approach", you're being mislead. That's not even close to what's going on. It's easy to be blunt about matters when you're being informed as an outsider, but trust me. That's not the case. Turkey did not "realize" they needed to do something. They have been attacked and forced to do something. By ISIS. Forcing Turkey to "do something" was ISIS' intention all along. And I've talked about it here repeatedly months ago. You might think I'm acting like a know-it-all about this whole situation, but I am very well informed. In addition to having followed the progress of the events right in the middle of it all, I've also had talks with people who have inside scoop on the Turkish-Syrian border. This is something that I keep a close eye on. I'm not forcing anyone to take my word for anything but really, you should.

Nothing, and I mean nothing that happened in the ISIS-Turkey relations have come as a surprise to me so far. We all knew an attack was due this week. I can go in depth about why an ISIS attack in Turkey wasn't a surprise but I'm quite tired of writing and writing all the time.

The only current thing that's going on that I haven't got a clue about is the comeback of PKK's terrorist attacks. I've got some ideas in mind (Rise of HDP as the forefront leaders of the Kurdish cause, development of ISIS-AKP relations, the recent Dolmabahçe Proceedings) but I have no confirmation.
 
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Why are they being forced to do something about it now? Hasn't it been on the horizon long enough? They have been attacked by ISIS yes because Turkey did nothing for so long? Turkey played the waiting game with tanks on the border for months... Better do something about it before you are forced to do something about it.
 
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Why are they being forced to do something about it now? Hasn't it been on the horizon long enough? They have been attacked by ISIS yes because Turkey did nothing for so long?

I'll need to quote myself from the European Politics thread to start off.

"Prior to 2011, the relations between Turkey and Syria were going pretty well. Maybe even too well. Erdoğan would refer to Assad as his "brother", and vice versa. They even took vacations together with their wives. If you were to single out a BFF for Erdoğan, it'd be Assad. Then, out of the blue, the tables turned. Erdoğan, out of nowhere, started calling Assad a dictator who agonized his people. He cut off all diplomatic and economic ties to Syria. What happened? Well, Erdoğan was in the United States to have a meeting with Obama, just days before he started slamming Assad. Overthrowing Assad became an ideal for Turkey as much as it was an ideal for the United States. The reasons were likely economy based, Turkey would probably get something, not clear what exactly, but something to their benefit from the overthrow of Assad. While the Syrian Civil War was going on, Turkey openly started training Free Syrian Army militants. Then, behind the curtains, they started arming the Assad opposers. The Turkish secret intelligence, MIT were accused of sending opposing groups weaponry with trailer trucks. Among those groups being armed were Al Nusra Front, Islamic Front, Ajnad al-Sham Islamic Union and then relatively-unknown to the world, Islamic State of Iraq and Syria. All of these groups have one thing in common: Sunni Islamism.

As the thing in Syria was going on, Erdoğan openly declared his support for the Muslim Brotherhood. He supported Mohammed Morsi in Egypt. During the time of the Egyptian coup d'etat, he started to publicly bash Abdel Fattah el Sisi and became even more fanatical of his statements of support for the Muslim Brotherhood.

Here's the crucial point for all this. Erdoğan, no matter how Pro-Western and non-Islamic he portrayed himself in the past, is a man of his roots. He wasn't going to throw away what he grew up believing in, started doing politics for and strived for. Politics is a game of benefits. It's a clash of pragmatism and ideologies. Erdoğan only did what needed to be done to achieve power and with his new found confidence in the late 2000s, started to push for his ideals. His ideal is to create a complete alliance of the Sunni Muslim world and become the leader of it. He's never been shy of secterianist statements. He wasn't trying to deny it, not trying to hide it. He has made discriminative statements about Alawites and has made sure to single out Sunnis whenever there was a talk of Muslims. When Reyhanlı, Hatay was attacked back in 2013 and 52 people were killed, Erdoğan said "52 of our Sunni citizens have been killed". Speaking of Reyhanlı, it became public through the works of an opposing newspaper that the attack's perpetrators were a group, then allied with Al-Qaeda. That group's name was Islamic State of Iraq and Levant. Erdoğan, or AKP in general never came clear about the accusations.

The truth of the matter is, AKP strived for a Sunni controlled territory in northern Syria that would have substantial benefits to Turkey and push his agenda of "Sunni imperialism" even further. And they thought Islamic State of Iraq and Levant was a possible candidate. That's why they never acknowledged their involvement in Reyhanlı, that's why they stayed away from pushing an operation further. Not because they thought about the risks , as pointed out by myself on this very thread quite a few times before, involving an operation; but simply because they were still hopeful of a Sunni controlled territory to be founded in northern Syria and then becoming their allies.

Assad hasn't been overthrown. United States backed down from their point of view and moved towards a "conversational" approach with Assad. Meanwhile Erdoğan has made it clear that for them to do anything to do with Syria, Assad needed to be overthrown. Now, when U.S. influence was the first thing that made him turn the tables on Assad in the first place, why did he carry on asking for him to be removed? Because that U.S. influence I talked about became crystal clear in the eyes of the general public. People knowing that he wasn't this "world leader who didn't give a shit what anyone else thought" but merely a puppet for a big brother would absolutely destroy the image he had. Therefore he had to go on his way, pretending that he was the one pulling the strings. When in reality everything came clear over time. Erdoğan, with his fanatical Sunni Islamist imperalist viewpoint, his cult of personality that he himself got caught up in, tried to create his own "little brothers" and failed. Immensely. And now the country has to pay for his delusions."
  • AKP, while it may be hard to believe, saw ISIS as a possible ally in Northern Syria before they became known worldwide for their atrocities. They'd view Al Nusra Front, Islamic Front or Ajnad al-Sham the same way if they were the ones to find the biggest strength. Turkish secret intelligence sent arms to ISIS via trailer trucks through the Syrian border. They were widely accused of it but there was no evidence. That evidence was found and published on a newspaper by an investigative journalist a couple of months ago. AKP denied helping ISIS and argued they were arming the Turkmens of the area, which in itself is illegal, but it has had a massive effect on their policies regarding ISIS. If AKP didn't take a different approach, they'd be widely exposed as being terrorism supporters, which would effectively end their power.
  • A huge part of this whole thing that many foreign followers do not take into account is PKK, PYD and YPG. PKK terror absolutely wrecked this country for years. Hundreds of thousands of soldiers have been killed, thousands of civilians have been killed in terrorist assaults. AKP, under heavy criticism, recognized PKK's leader and started proceedings under the name "Solution Process" which led to a ceasefire. But a resolution was never reached and PKK never agreed to lay down their arms completely. The biggest reason why Turkey could not agree to take on a leading military role against ISIS was their concerns about PKK, PYD and YPG getting stronger in the process. And trust me, it's long known that these groups are looking to take any chance they can to get stronger and establish a seperate Kurdish state. Turkey, obviously not wanting the country to break apart, had to be cautious about their steps, even after they had to recognize ISIS as a terrorist organization. HDP, a Pro-Kurdish party that has ties to PKK but is a force of its own, recently managed to get into the parliament and thus became the forefront leader of the Kurdish cause. PKK, this week, went back to the assaults after couple of years of ceasefire. That's because they want to stay relevant. If Turkey ever backs down from the ISIS fight or struggles to overwhelm them, PKK will get even harsher with their assaults and a war between PKK/PYD/YPG and Turkey will break out on the border. If Turkey deals with ISIS on the border, ISIS will use their militants inside the border and attack the big cities in the country. If Turkey aren't able to deal with ISIS on the border, ISIS will advance into the country. Turkey is facing a threat of having two wars at the same time. They might get rid of one then have another one. The ideal is to have no wars at all.
  • What Turkish government should've done was to block foreigners joining ISIS before they could get anywhere near the border, stop the "meddling in" policy in Syria and deal with Assad being at power and making sure ISIS militants wouldn't find anything to their benefit around the border. AKP have failed to fulfill any of these. And since their "potential alligment" came to fail, it now comes to haunt them.
  • After AKP nearly came close to being exposed as terrorism supporters, their alligment ideals broke down and PYD/YPG gained strength, they had to strengthen the border and then stop people from joining ISIS. The first time they ever tried to stop people from crossing the border to join ISIS led to ISIS attacking the soldiers, killing one of them and effectively starting the Turkey-ISIS war. Emphasis on the PYG/YPG strength. One of the biggest reasons why AKP has decided to take on a military role against ISIS is because they're scared of PYD/YPG getting even stronger over time. PYD/YPG's armament becomes larger and larger over time due to their alligment with the coalition against ISIS. Turkey pretty much decided to take matters into their own hand because they don't want PYD/YPG to come out on top against ISIS, get stronger, get more motivation and then come fight Turkey over the establishment of a Kurdish state.
Short answer: AKP decided to stop people from joining ISIS because PYD/YPG is getting the upper hand in Northern Syria and a strong PYD/YPG likely means Turkey facing the danger of breaking apart. And because they started to stop people from joining ISIS, ISIS retaliated. That's why they're forced to act now. Because they can't let PYD/YPG be the "heroes" against ISIS. They have to get down to business, deal with ISIS and make sure PYD/YPG gains nothing from it.

* I hope, for the sake of my time being wasted on here, I've made clear why Turkey cannot (or sadly, couldn't) get into the fight around the borders. Because we'd be facing war. Not that "send your planes to your allies" type of war. A full-fledged war. Maybe not even one, but two full-fledged wars. With one of them having the risk of the country breaking apart. I've explained this time and time again here but to no avail (well, except for Perun who shared the same concerns as I did). People who aren't specificially interested in Kurdish affairs and the area we're talking about will not have a full grasp on the Kurdish interest groups and their goals. I get that. That's why I'm trying to explain stuff. And why this isn't just "Why couldn't Turkey just attack ISIS and get rid of them" thing. That's not how you go about your business in the Middle East. Just ask the United States.
 
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Did you actually read what I just wrote? If you did, what a ridiculous question. The whole premise of the Assad chapter is that Turkey should not have intervened with Syria's internal matters and shouldn't have been Assad opposers. That's the whole thing I went on about there. The question you've just asked makes me wonder if my time explaining stuff here is actually worth a damn thing.
 
We have to deal with both. There's no first. As I said on the previous page:

Turkey has to deal with both terrorist groups, and make sure hurting one doesn't benefit the other.

From an international standpoint obviously you'd want us to deal with ISIS first. Because PKK/PYD/YPG is not a danger to anyone else but Turkey, Syria and Iraq. But I'd like to think that my country isn't just some disposable hero that you use to deal with ISIS and then watch as it drowns in a civil war.
 
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Well good and like I said now many many posts ago..this is all good for the international fight against ISIS :)

I guess. But again, don't see my country as some disposable hero you use and then watch as it drowns in a civil war. From some posts in this thread that's the sentiment I'm getting. No care for the possibility of a civil war breaking out. And I've made it loud and clear that it is a definite possibility.
 
I agree with this analysis from the BBC website:

But it seems Turkey insisted that strikes against IS go hand-in-hand with those against the PKK. That complicates matters: the coalition is working with Kurdish forces against IS and a fragile ceasefire with the PKK may now end, raising fears of renewed Kurdish violence in Turkey. President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has one eye on possible new elections in the autumn, hoping to court nationalist voters. A hard line against the PKK would help that.
 
That Nile song and video is such an intense combination. It's just sad that some uneducated people would see that, and think that the band are ISIS sympathisers, when the complete opposite is actually the case. Nile are an amazing band.
 
It takes balls to address these issues. It's way easier to diss (aspects of) Christianity/Catholicism or religion in general.
 
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BBm1llN.img


BEIRUT (AP) — Islamic State militants have destroyed a temple at Syria's ancient ruins of Palmyra, activists said Sunday, realizing the worst fears archaeologists had for the 2,000-year-old Roman-era city after the extremists seized it and beheaded a local scholar.

Palmyra, one of the Middle East's most spectacular archaeological sites and a UNESCO World Heritage site, sits near the modern Syrian city of the same name. Activists said the militants used explosives to blow up the Baalshamin Temple on its grounds, the blast so powerful it also damaged some of the Roman columns around it.

The Britain-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said Sunday night that the temple was blown up a month ago. Turkey-based activist Osama al-Khatib, who is originally from Palmyra, said the temple was blown up Sunday. Both said the extremists used a large amount of explosives to destroy it.
 
Well, the French are starting to help out a bit and kicking some ass! http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/0...islamic-state-in-syria/?cmpid=cmty_twitter_fn
Six French jet fighters targeted and destroyed an Islamic State training camp in eastern Syria, President Francois Hollande said Sunday, making good on a promise to go after the group that the president has said is planning attacks against several countries, including France.

The airstrikes were the first in Syria by France as it expands its mission against ISIS.

"The camp was totally destroyed," Hollande said Sunday after arriving at the United Nations, before the start of a major development summit and the U.N. General Assembly bringing together world leaders.

"We're sure there were no casualties" among civilians, he added.

The French president's office announced the strikes, without details, in a statement hours earlier.

"Our nation will strike each time our national security is at stake," the statement said.

Hollande told reporters the strikes on the training camp, and others to come, were aimed at "protecting our territory, cutting short terrorist actions, acting in legitimate defense."

Hollande said more strikes "could take place in the coming weeks if necessary." The targets were identified in earlier French reconnaissance flights and with information provided by the U.S.-led coalition.

The president announced earlier this month a change in French strategy — expanding its airstrikes over Iraq into Syria.

France has carried out 215 airstrikes against ISIS extremists in Iraq as part of the U.S.-led coalition since last year, the Defense Ministry said earlier this month. But it previously held back on engaging in Syria, citing concern over playing into Assad's hand and the need for such action to be covered by international law.

Officials now evoke "legitimate defense" as spelled out in the U.N. Charter to support strikes in Syria.

France has already been attacked by extremists claiming ties to ISIS. Hollande, who has ruled out sending ground troops into Syria, has cited "proof" of plans for attacks on France and the growing danger to Syrian civilians, with a large chunk of the population fleeing in a massive exodus.

Prime Minister Manuel Valls said France was going after ISIS "sanctuaries where those who want to hit France are trained."

The goal of the strikes is to "slow, break, stop if possible the penetration of Daesh," Gen. Vincent Desportes said on the iTele TV station, using the Arabic acronym for ISIS.

Hollande stressed the importance of seeking a political solution for Syria.

"More than ever the urgency is putting in place a political transition," including elements of the moderate opposition and Assad's regime, the statement said.

In New York, the French president said he would be meeting this week "all the partners" in the Syrian conflict.

"This political solution requires that all stakeholders are involved," he said. "We are not excluding anyone." He didn't name countries.

At the same time, he said, "The future of Syria cannot be with Bashar al Assad."

The French government has insisted that while it is part of the U.S.-led coalition, France is deciding independently who and what to hit in Syria.

Hollande announced on Sept. 7 France's intention to start airstrikes, days after the photo of a dead 3-year-old Syrian boy galvanized public concern about Syrian refugees fleeing to save their lives.

In his statement Sunday, Hollande said: "Civilian populations must be protected from all forms of violence, that of ISIS and other terrorist groups but also the murderous bombardments of Bashar Assad."
 
Nice to see the French have shown up, but let's remember they have spent the last 3 years significantly engaged vs. Al Qaeda-related forces in Eastern Africa.
 
Will be interesting to see if Obama and Putin can find a common goal in the fight against ISIS at the upcoming meet. Russia taking part in the fight would definitely help a great deal.
 
Will be interesting to see if Obama and Putin can find a common goal in the fight against ISIS at the upcoming meet. Russia taking part in the fight would definitely help a great deal.
Britain is signaling a relaxing of the line against al-Assad. As a result, I suspect that is going to be part of what happens. I'm not sure I like Russia helping out - but a truly global coalition against this threat would be nice.
 
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