ISIS Thread

I agree that people mostly understand that. My understanding is that there was little sympathy emoted towards a person living in a country that something terrible happened in.

Sometimes its better to take time, to feel some empathy, before attacking someone's country. I'd imagine Flash was feeling like he was being hounded by friends, when he really needs support more.
 
I agree that people mostly understand that. My understanding is that there was little sympathy emoted towards a person living in a country that something terrible happened in.

Sometimes its better to take time, to feel some empathy, before attacking someone's country. I'd imagine Flash was feeling like he was being hounded by friends, when he really needs support more.


I get that ... but when something happens .. and is news, is when things usually get discussed and people by nature try to both figure out why these things happen and what can be done to prevent them from happening again.

It happens over and over, including on this forum. Look in the US thread at the time when Newton or the movie theater shootings happened and it is full of advice from non-Americans about what America should do. Same with Charlie Hedbo in France, 9/11, and on and on.

I take it as "it sucks this happened here is what can prevent it from happening again" type of commentary. Whether the solution proposed is right or not. It just seems unlikely that we will have a "remember what happened 3 months ago in X location, we should do Y"
 
Thanks for your understanding bearfan.

That said, I'll try to be more tactful when terrible things happen in someone's country. I wanted to make a point across, and I still think the timing was a good one, but doing it without showing (enough) empathy, didn't exactly help. Let's hope it will have a better effect next time.

At the same time, there's always a sender and a receiver. It's hard to adjust 100% to everybody's receiving antenna. The receiver should also understand and respect my intentions. They are not bad. But this time, it lacked empathy (and the second longer post was even more angry because of the personal attack coming my way).
 
At the same time, there's always a sender and a receiver. It's hard to adjust 100% to everybody's receiving antenna. The receiver should also understand and respect my intentions.

Agreed, which is why I also spoke to Flash in my long post.
 
For what it's worth "Your government" vs. "Turkish government" did not rile me up. I didn't take it personal, I got riled up for different reasons which I've explained before. Don't know if my second post got caught in the chaos but I did my best to explain what I felt there. I didn't get offended because I felt that I was being accused of being "Pro-Government", I got offended because I felt that I was being accused of being "Anti-Kurdish". That's the prime reason why the fight has lingered on for as long as it did anyway, I repeatedly felt offended.

I'm sure I've posted enough anti-government stuff on the forum that people know me as an opposer by now. "Vote" has come up a few times, for the record, I voted for the main opposing party, CHP.
 
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For what it's worth "Your government" vs. "Turkish government" did not rile me up. I didn't take it personal, I got riled up for different reasons which I've explained before. Don't know if my second post got caught in the chaos but I did my best to explain what I felt there. I didn't get offended because I felt that I was being accused of being "Pro-Government", I got offended because I felt that I was being accused of being "Anti-Kurdish". That's the prime reason why the fight has lingered on for as long as it did anyway, I repeatedly felt offended.

I'm sure I've posted enough anti-government stuff on the forum that people know me as an opposer by now. "Vote" has come up a few times, for the record, I voted for the main opposing party, CHP.


I can understand that and that it is easy for people outside of a given country to oversimplify things where they do not live. Not suggesting Foro is doing this, I do not know what his level of Turkish knowledge is.

I would guess if you mentioned Turkey to most Americans, they would think of the meat first and the country second.

But I think people in general will comment on events in other countries based in part on their general philosophy, based on how it may affect them/their country, and from a news article or two ... and in this case about how ISIS should be defeated/contained/engaged or whatever someone thinks the goal should be.

I would not take it personally, because I doubt it is intended that way. In any case, everyone in this thread has excellent taste in music, so there is that.
 
PKK killed two policemen in Adıyaman yesterday. They added two more in Diyarbakır today. They aren't exactly helping the Kurdish cause at the moment. In light of what happened in the past couple of weeks, I can't help but feel that PKK and HDP (Pro-Kurdish party in the parliament) have an inner beef going on. HDP became the forefront leader of the Kurdish cause after being able to get into the parliament, PKK might be signalling that they're still relevant.

Meanwhile ISIS attacked Kilis and killed a Turkish soldier, for which Turkish Armed Forces has started a retaliation attack. F-16s in Diyarbakır are heading to the border to bomb ISIS. United States Armed Forces have been allowed to use the fighter jets located in Incirlik Base in Hatay. Turkey-ISIS war might have unofficially begun.

Turkey is currently dealing with constant attacks from two terrorist organizations at once. We're officially in the Middle East hellhole. The only thing I can hope for is luck.

Edit: "F-16s in Diyarbakır" news has been falsified. They're on a routine flight. Retaliation attack is done from the Turkish side of the border, a cross-border campaign isn't imminent for now. But this is still the first time Turkish Armed Forces and ISIS have clashed.
 
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Not only did Turkish F-16s attack IS positions in Syria last night... For the first time Turkey has given the USA permission to use a Turkish airbase for their attacks. This is a major change of course. In the past jihadists could easily go to Syria, to join IS and also IS themselves could pass Turkish borders, in order to travel to different positions. Now this. Analysts say this means a big change. America can now reach the area way easier.

It can be argued that IS wanted to tempt Turkey to join the war (more chaos!), but did they take into account with this step? A tactical blunder? Who knows.

Here follows a translation of a Dutch article I read today.

Dutch Chief of Defence of the Armed forces of the Netherlands, Tom Middendorp has said that he wants Dutch F16's to bombard in Syria as well. He sees small chance for a solution in the fight vs IS if they are not also taken on in their "free haven" area, Syria.

Last month, our government said that there is international legal basis for military action in Syria, because IS attacks Iraq from Syria. "it legitimizes the right of collective self defense".

Still the Netherlands restrict themselfes to Iraq, because "there is no broadly carried political strategy for the solution of the conflict in Syria". For the future, the possibility is kept open.

The US, Canada and some Arabic countries are bombarding IS in Syria, but the Arab countries have a very small contribution. According to the US half of the IS commanders have been killed, and some thousands of warriors.

On top of that, IS has lost lots of terrain, especially in North Iraq. They can move men and material less easy. Middendorp sees this as a sign that the current Dutch contribution of bombarding and training (Kurdish) warriors in Iraq, is a crucial one.

However, IS is not everywhere in the defense. That is because the coalition does not attack enough. “We see that the capacity of the coalition in Syria is too limited to attack IS effectively”, says Middendorp. Still he agrees with the government that there must be a view on a political solution.

Also in other countries there is this same discussion. In the UK there is controversy about British military bombarding in Syria under American flag, without permission of the House of Commons.

The Netherlands have recently restricted the mission from 6 to 4 F16s, but expanding the operation area would make the coalition more flexible. To really conquer area on IS, ground forces are needed. And that's what lacks.

The real fighting must be done by local warriors. Complication is that Syrian opposition is dominated by muslim extremists. American plans to train moderate Syrian rebels are not working yet. Also there is a lack of information and people on the ground to help pointing out targets on the ground, for attacks from the air.

Middendorp uttered his worries about the mission. He would like to have more collaboration betweem bilateral armament programs and training for local warriors.

Also he discussed how the Kurds are helped by this mission in their strive for an own state. “Are we here with training to support the fight vs IS, or do we meanwhile help with Kurdish nation building? Then there's a risk of getting involved in a next local battle for power.”
 
ISIS tempting Turkey into war and Middendorp's concern about the 'next local battle for power' are basically what I've been rambling on about in the last couple of months here.

We're now at the point where strategies and risk avoidance are gone. Turkish government could not avoid the risks. At this point I can only hope for a massive military success. A success so sharp that it crushes the possibility of ISIS retaliating. It's a long shot, not only because of the ISIS strength in the area, but also because of the ISIS militants who are roaming around the country undercover. I wouldn't be surprised to see ISIS prepare attacks on the big cities like Istanbul, Ankara and Izmir if it comes down to it. You're putting the border on danger if the operations fail, you're putting the big cities on danger if they're successful. It's a slippery slope if I've ever seen one.

There's now also a comeback of PKK terror, which is a danger in itself. Turkey has to deal with both terrorist groups, and make sure hurting one doesn't benefit the other.
 
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It can be argued that a broadly carried political strategy is not necessary anymore now Turkey has received IS attacks on their own territory.
Article 5 of the NATO treaty says: an attack on a NATO-member is an attack on all. It came into effect one time earlier, after 9/11.

The Turks haven't said that they are threatened by IS and that it is an attack on a NATO-member. But, if that would happen, then this treaty comes into effect. One member is attacked and it has the right of self defense and all allies can help. All members can follow that reasoning, so also the Netherlands.

This is not only attacking IS in Syria. It is also defending an ally.
 
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Well, without stepping on any toes I hope, it seems like Turkey realized that they have to up the effort against ISIS. We discussed this long ago in this thread and I'm glad Turkey delivers this "game changer" now in the war vs ISIS. More urgent than ever.
 
Well, without stepping on any toes I hope, it seems like Turkey realized that they have to up the effort against ISIS. We discussed this long ago in this thread and I'm glad Turkey delivers this "game changer" now in the war vs ISIS. More urgent than ever.

What's going on has nothing to do with what we discussed earlier. We discussed Turkey getting involved in the fight against ISIS and its possible risks. Turkey didn't get involved voluntarily here, they were attacked. If ISIS did not attack Turkey, you could bet all your fortune that Turkish Armed Forces wouldn't go into combat with them, because, as I've argued before, it wouldn't make sense for the country's safety.
 
Where everything is i think the Turkish involvement will benefit the international fight against ISIS and like I said, it's more urgent than ever.

It's a fair enough point, but saying "Turkey realized they have to up the effort against ISIS" goes against every argument I've made on the thread and is far from the truth. Had to point it out.
 
Well I haven't read back through all of the posts here before writing this but I'm just saying that Turkey had other priorities than ISIS before it actually landed on their doorstep. And the question is could they have acted more preemptive? I don't really know.
 
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