IRON MAIDEN SURVIVOR 2015: Results - Hallowed wins again!

Satisfied

  • Total voters
    15
I keep reading everybody writing about how TBOS coming out made them re-evaluate TFF and how TFF sucks and whatever... and I keep double checking all the time. I mean, I like the new album a lot and it's new, but the "second part" of TFF (Avalon -> Wild Wind) is still one of the most amazing sequences on a Maiden album, even though I don't like TMWWBK as much as I used to (and even then it's much better than Man of Sorrows, IMHO). In fact, it might be the strongest consecutive 45 minutes on any Maiden record.

I'm not saying TFF doesn't have it's share of problems (the length of the single disc, the first two tracks, Bruce's voice and yes, the division between the "short" part and the "epic" part make it slightly hard to listen to in one sitting), but I would expect much more love.

I have already written this elsewhere, but Talisman is the one place where Bruce's TFF vocals actually work for the song, with the protagonist being delirious with fever and whatnot.
Starblind still has probably their best lyrics ever (and I'm saying that as someone who's not that hot about that particular message, too).
And Avalon is much more adventurous and original than EotC, the piano and the length of the latter notwithstanding.
 
JudasMyGuide said:
I don't like TMWWBK as much as I used to (and even then it's much better than Man of Sorrows, IMHO). In fact, it might be the strongest consecutive 45 minutes on any Maiden record.

Starblind still has probably their best lyrics ever (and I'm saying that as someone who's not that hot about that particular message, too).

And Avalon is much more adventurous and original than EotC, the piano and the length of the latter notwithstanding.
Click to expand...

IRYO :D

but...

- TMWWBK is one of the most disjointed songs the band has ever written. It doesn't flow well and the lyrics are poor.
- Starblind's lyrics are very good, but incredibly nebulous. The closest thing to Mikael Akerfeldt's "I wrote it because it sounds deep and interesting" theory that Maiden has ever done. That's not saying the lyrics are bad, they are certainly are not, but I don't think the idea is very clear so I have some trouble labeling them as "Maiden's best lyrics ever."
- EotC is far more adventurous, in sound, tone, and breadth than Avalon, and that has nothing to do with the length.
 
MrKnickerbocker said:
IRYO :D

but...

- TMWWBK is one of the most disjointed songs the band has ever written. It doesn't flow well and the lyrics are poor.
- Starblind's lyrics are very good, but incredibly nebulous. The closest thing to Mikael Akerfeldt's "I wrote it because it sounds deep and interesting" theory that Maiden has ever done. That's not saying the lyrics are bad, they are certainly are not, but I don't think the idea is very clear so I have some trouble labeling them as "Maiden's best lyrics ever."
- EotC is far more adventurous, in sound, tone, and breadth than Avalon, and that has nothing to do with the length.
Click to expand...


I agree TMWWBK is a disjointed mess of ideas, however the ideas are mostly good to great, the main part flows quite well IMO and some parts are very unique and beautiful (I mean mainly the weird instrumental part from 3:57 on - not your typical Maiden). You might say the parts are more than their sum, but the song amuses me much more than MOS.

Starblind lyrics may be hazy (and I usually dislike that), and they might be anti-religious (I usually dislike that unless it's done well), but they sound great, they fit the song and IMO balance on the line perfectly - too abstract for anyone to actually put their finger on it, yet too "solid" to be considered really pretentious or "hipsterish". What I get from those is a narrator nearing (or during) death, trying to reconcile his thoughts on eternity and religion. However, since Bruce is no preacher, the narrator is also a bit unreliable in that regard.

Avalon still sounds to me as one of the most non-Maidenish sounding tracks they've ever done, yet it sounds absolutely amazing. As some reviewer said about the excellent Critique Oblique and Overseer Overture parts of Jethro Tull's Passion Play - "they never really played in that way before and never would after". Yes, the song might have it's problems, but subjectively, it's completely baffling and it creates an absolutely amazing, haunting, apocalyptic even, atmosphere. Empire does not ever compare to me (it's way too melodramatic for starters).

But, like you said, IRYO :)
 
As hot for TBOS as I am, I don't think it's made me reevaluate TFF as worse somehow - indeed, I've always viewed TFF as a grower and wasn't a huge fan of anything except The Talisman and When The Wild Wind Blows first time round. There are several songs that I am a big fan of on this record that I couldn't stand initially. The title track is my biggest example, now being one of my favourite Maiden songs ever.

I still feel that the middle section of the album (Isle Of Avalon, Starblind) is alien to me. Everyone loves it and for the life of me I cannot understand. I appreciate that it's attempting something different but both songs are too busy for me.
 
I don't think it's so much that TFF is worse now, more that TBOS shows they're even greater now than what TFF might have indicated.
 
I consider TFF to be considerably better than TBOS. A couple of levels higher, in fact. TBOS was a disappointment for me, whereas TFF still stands strong to the test of time.

If I were to pick five favorite songs in total from the two albums, only 'If Eternity Should Fail' would make the list.
 
I think the problem with TFF is mainly the performances. The songs are all good, but they would've benefitted from better performances, production, and maybe more fine tuning.
 
Performances on TBOS definitely outclasses TFF. But I found the creativity and songwriting to be lacking. Songs sounded too samey to me, the ones that didn't sound as samey became my favorites from the album anyway. (IESF, Great Unknown, Clown, Sorrows)
 
There's a bit less variety on TBOS compared to TFF for sure, but at the same time I think TBOS also has more in the way of new ideas than TFF did. That's enough to keep it exciting for me.

And to avoid turning this into Fugitive vs Starblind 2.0, I'm not going to list the new ideas. :p
 
TBOS has definitely changed my perception of Final Frontier. I had a similar reaction to TFF as DJ above, liking only Talisman and the title track initially, finding Coming Home really cheesy, and Wild Wind a little too despairing, then other songs grew. I drop out on the 'middle section' too, although I did very much like Starblind at one time. But while I felt like Maiden were taking a more refined, mature and thoughtful approach to their music at that stage in their career, since TBOS, it's felt like TFF was simply a quiet, sedate period, and they've since piled energy and drama into another album.
 
I actually reevaluated TFF before TBOS came out and was shocked at how poor it held up. The songwriting and performances (not counting H) just don't seem tight. There is tons of inspiration in the material, but it feels like a less enthusiastic record all around (probably the least enthusiastic record of the reunion era). It feels more like DOD in that the album is constantly being pulled between wildly innovative experiments (Satellite, Avalon, even Starblind and parts of TMWWBK) and paint-by-numbers Maiden (title track, El Dorado, Coming Home, Alchemist, Talisman, Wild Wind). Unfortunately, the performances/production/songwriting on the experimental tracks is shaky and so the band doesn't really sell them as hard as they could.

I love some of TFF - Talisman, Wild Wind - and hold the whole middle portion of the album in high regard - but overall it's disjointed and a little tame.
 
  • Like
Reactions: RTC
Tame is a good word. Musically, I can see El Dorado, Coming Home (not 'Coming Gnome' as I just managed to type), and Alchemist as Maiden paint by numbers, possibly the TFF element of Satellite/TFF, too, but not so much Talisman or really Wild Wind, either. The mood of the album is really quite subdued in general, though.
 
Brigantium said:
Tame is a good word. Musically, I can see El Dorado, Coming Home (not 'Coming Gnome' as I just managed to type), and Alchemist as Maiden paint by numbers, possibly the TFF element of Satellite/TFF, too, but not so much Talisman or really Wild Wind, either. The mood of the album is really quite subdued in general, though.
Click to expand...

I guess not paint by numbers, but Talisman could easily be seen as a second attempt at Ghost of the Navigator and Wild Wind is TFF's "big Steve epic" that follows the general "big Steve epic" structure.

And don't worry, I typed "Wild Wing" both times in my previous post and had to go back to edit.
 
I just listened to TFF yesterday ... it is a good album, I don't find much wrong with it, but it does lack the highlights that TBOS and AMOLAD have .. with the exception of Avalon. I think they tries to stick with the AMOLAD path .. common theme, similar production, some similar structures and it just does not live up to it. I think when all is said and done, it will be looked on as a solid album, but lower middle of the Maiden pack .. which is still in good company
 
Satellite 15 - Final Frontier was/is a pretty big misstep in hindsight if you ask me. Looking at how they managed to incorporate both intro and outro in "If Eternity Should Fail"...Satellite just feels oddly tagged on and not properly thought through.
 
Well that's how experimentation works, some stuff is a success and some stuff not so much. But we wouldn't have a success like If Eternity Should Fail if they didn't have a prototype in Satellite 15. It takes awhile to get there.
 
Plus I don't think Satellite 15 was meant to work the same way as IESF's intro. It's not really an intro, it's more like a song in its own right.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top