GREATEST METAL ALBUM CUP - Winner: Iron Maiden - Seventh Son of a Seventh Son!

srfc said:
If some prog geek band beats Machine Head I'm officially going to put a knife through the next football that comes into my back garden! You damn kids!
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In the pairing that Loosey put in spoilers (where MH will come up) I will probably vote for the other album, because 1.) I like the opposing album more (and no, it's no prog geek band, don't worry, it's pleb enough),

2.) Burn > In Rock > Stormbringer > Fireball > Machine Head. Sorry, but a lot of the stuff on that album was better done live (the studio versions sound somewhat sterile) and Pictures of Home and Never Before is not enough.

I'm a stupid zoomer that way :hello: :D
 
Jer said:
To answer your question, I’d say Out Of The Cellar is about a half step down from those top-tier albums because it’s a little simpler. I like it better than Defenders Of The Faith because it’s more consistent than that album, but I don’t like it quite as much as the Metallica, Maiden, and Dokken albums from the same year. The rhythm and lead work are fantastic, the vocal lines are great, and the songwriting vascillates between strong and great. The lyrics are a bit silly in places, for sure. But yes, I think that anyone who gives it a fair listen should hear its value.
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To put it bluntly it's not heavy enough. It's just a hard rock album from a band that's not so popular outside of it's home country.
Also I think it would score better if "I'm insane" were the showcase song.
 
Rappers do not sing. I can't believe how many times I'll hear this b.s.

I do not know what kind of a language you all speak but in mine both pitch variation and infliction are standard. If I were to record my speech I would find the pedantic definition of melody there. Rap is human speech in a lingual flow. "The music" comes from this flow having a rhythmic relation to the background track.

The problem is defining artsy stuff via stiff written definitions.
Colour is the interpretation of photon's wavelenght as it hits the sensor in the eye. How many wavelenghts are there? As many as you want, infinite. So if I put a dash of white, then two dashes of white, and follow it up with a white background, actually the three whites can be "of a different colour" and while all you see is a white painting in front of you, one might declare it as "colourful"

So how many pitch changes in a structure does it take to form a melody? And where those pitches need to be in the spectrum?
Interval between E2 and F2 is 5Hz. Interval between E4 and F4 is 20Hz.

You can traverse 5Hz by saying "oh-oh" in typical movie way. It's not singing.
 
JudasMyGuide said:
2.) Burn > In Rock > Stormbringer > Fireball > Machine Head. Sorry, but a lot of the stuff on that album was better done live (the studio versions sound somewhat sterile) and Pictures of Home and Never Before is not enough.
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Perfect Strangers is a top 3 album for me. It is also the most consistent record IMHO they did.

People might backlash here, that's expected, what is not written in the poll score is how close an individual choice was. In Rock vs CFH was absolutely tough for me, if you asked me IRL I'd say "both" and be done with it. Both bands are VIP, Top5 in my book. I also wanted to make sure CFH goes on because I think it has greatest chances on this site...see there are some heavy metal masterpieces on later records, such as Hell's Wrath, but the music will be put down because of "extreme vocals", "tuff guy", and the rest of it.

Also Pantera in my book is one of the rare bands that can fight Deep Purple on the merit of all members being absolutely incredible to godlike at their instrument. Other is Maiden, and that's about it.
 
srfc said:
I always get a cheap laugh out of this, as in Dublin vernacular if something is brutal it means it's terrible, awful, shit etc.
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It changed meaning here, younger people tend to use it as they've heard in English, but there are no positive conotations in Croatian...Brutal is used for beyond-criminal negativity. Older people will raise an eyebrow if you say "brutal" for someone that's very good at what they do.

Another thing pops to mind, "eventually"...in Croatian it doesn't mean it will happen in future, but might happen conditions permitting.
 
Jer said:
Singing by definition includes melody. Look it up. Growlers aren’t singing when they’re growling.
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Problem is it seems you missed the definition of melody (source https://www.dictionary.com/browse/melody?s=t):
  1. the succession of single tones in musical compositions, as distinguished from harmony and rhythm.
  2. the principal part in a harmonic composition; the air.
  3. a rhythmical succession of single tones producing a distinct musical phrase or idea.
So in other words singing implies:
a) rhythm: growlers have it.
b) tone variations: as much it may amaze you THE VAST MAJORITY OF GROWLERS ALSO DO TONAL VARIATIONS! No matter how short they are: 1 semi tone up or down or one tone.

So once again it comes down to one thing: your personal taste. It's the same when I listen to really old people saying "Dio and Dickinson? These guys don't sing... they shout and scream!". If we take the "singing" definition in account this approach is as incorrect as yours. And that my friend is not an opinion.
 
srfc said:
I always get a cheap laugh out of this, as in Dublin vernacular if something is brutal it means it's terrible, awful, shit etc.
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Curious... being a Latin word (it derives from "Brutus") in Portuguese slang it means exceptional, outstanding, mind blowing. And it's also written "brutal" (although spoken slightly different).
 
karljant said:
b) tone variations: as much it may amaze you THE VAST MAJORITY OF GROWLERS ALSO DO TONAL VARIATIONS! No matter how short they are: 1 semi tone up or down or one tone.
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I think this is what most people miss about growling: the best growlers are changing notes. Sure, maybe not as frequently as a clean singer, but they are not literally just belching out the same pitch over and over again because that would sound terrible. Some growlers don’t have tonal variations, and thus, are not very good growlers (this is actually why I don’t like most black metal scream/wailing: I don’t often hear pitch or tonal variations).

tl;dr - it is possible to growl with melody.
 
karljant said:
Problem is it seems you missed the definition of melody (source https://www.dictionary.com/browse/melody?s=t):
  1. the succession of single tones in musical compositions, as distinguished from harmony and rhythm.
  2. the principal part in a harmonic composition; the air.
  3. a rhythmical succession of single tones producing a distinct musical phrase or idea.
So in other words singing implies:
a) rhythm: growlers have it.
b) tone variations: as much it may amaze you THE VAST MAJORITY OF GROWLERS ALSO DO TONAL VARIATIONS! No matter how short they are: 1 semi tone up or down or one tone.

So once again it comes down to one thing: your personal taste. It's the same when I listen to really old people saying "Dio and Dickinson? These guys don't sing... they shout and scream!". If we take the "singing" definition in account this approach is as incorrect as yours. And that my friend is not an opinion.
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Wait, did you miss the memo? It's only melody when Zare says it is. Sorry, nice try :ninja:


(not that I agree with the second half of your post - as is probably obvious from my previous posts, but let's first get together to crush our common enemies and only then let's jump at each other's throat, okay? :ninja:)
 
karljant said:
I don't know... what do Zare says?
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Dude, like four posts above :D

Zare said:
Rappers do not sing. I can't believe how many times I'll hear this b.s.

I do not know what kind of a language you all speak but in mine both pitch variation and infliction are standard. If I were to record my speech I would find the pedantic definition of melody there. Rap is human speech in a lingual flow. "The music" comes from this flow having a rhythmic relation to the background track.

The problem is defining artsy stuff via stiff written definitions.
Colour is the interpretation of photon's wavelenght as it hits the sensor in the eye. How many wavelenghts are there? As many as you want, infinite. So if I put a dash of white, then two dashes of white, and follow it up with a white background, actually the three whites can be "of a different colour" and while all you see is a white painting in front of you, one might declare it as "colourful"

So how many pitch changes in a structure does it take to form a melody? And where those pitches need to be in the spectrum?
Interval between E2 and F2 is 5Hz. Interval between E4 and F4 is 20Hz.

You can traverse 5Hz by saying "oh-oh" in typical movie way. It's not singing.
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JudasMyGuide said:
Dude, like four posts above :D
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I disagree. Many of them sing since they construct pattern like tonal shifts (even if slight ones). There may be exceptions but I'm really detached from modern rap (and by modern I mean post early 90's!). I don't even listen to it so I don't know. I liked Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy, House Of pain, Public Enemy some Beasty Boys as well as some Rap Metal acts such as Clawfinger and Senser. And as far as I'm concerned I considered every single one of those MC's singers (especially Everlast from HOP... what a voice!).
 
karljant said:
So in other words singing implies:
a) rhythm: growlers have it.
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Yes.

karljant said:
b) tone variations: as much it may amaze you THE VAST MAJORITY OF GROWLERS ALSO DO TONAL VARIATIONS! No matter how short they are: 1 semi tone up or down or one tone.
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I think there’s a misunderstanding here. By this definition you could claim that Suicidal Tendencies’ “Institutionalized” is singing rather than spoken word because of the inflection changes. But he never holds a tone in that song, not even once, and he’s technically rapping the chorus.

Have I heard vocals in death metal bands occasionally go melodic while the vocals stay pretty harsh? Yes. Rare, but it’s happened. But in those moments I would argue that they switched from growling to singing, because they started hitting notes and the timbre is noticeably different from the growling when they switch. That’s why I said “growlers aren’t singing when they’re growling.”
 
Perun said:
I love how you guys unironically throw dictionary definitions at each other.
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Yeah, I know, it's a relief. Didn't "ironically" kill Star Wars or something?

karljant said:
I disagree. Many of them sing since they construct pattern like tonal shifts (even if slight ones). There may be exceptions but I'm really detached from modern rap (and by modern I mean post early 90's!). I don't even listen to it so I don't know. I liked Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy, House Of pain, Public Enemy some Beasty Boys as well as some Rap Metal acts such as Clawfinger and Senser. And as far as I'm concerned I considered every single one of those MC's singers (especially Everlast from HOP... what a voice!).
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That's why I put the ninja face there. Because... I mean, all my other posts. Duh.


So, tl;dr for the past thousand pages or so:

Jer and Cornfed: Growling bad, not singing, no melody, no art

Zare: Rapping bad, not singing, no melody, no art

Karljant & MrKnickerbocker: Growling good, yes singing, yes melody, yes art, ditto rapping

Judas: Growling possibly good, no singing, yes melody, possible art, lesser form, ditto rapping

Mosh & Karljant: You can't say anything objectively, it's all what you like in things

Judas: Fuck your postmodernism + random trolling

Diesel: 11/10!

Perun: Get off of my lawn.
 
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