GREATEST METAL ALBUM CUP - Winner: Iron Maiden - Seventh Son of a Seventh Son!

[karljant]

I think there’s a misunderstanding here.

Yup. You said it all now: You think. But definition of singing says quite a different thing, sorry. And yeah... Mike is speaking on the verses of Institutionalized but on the pre chorus and chorus he's singing (there's a pattern built with a note shift).

 

[Magnus]

all metal has some cheesiness to it

Speaking of cheese, I really like camembert. The more it stinks, the better. Some people might prefer mozzarella because it doesn't stink at all. They'll never convince me mozzarella is better. I'll never even try to convince them camembert doesn't stink. That's ok.
What's not ok is calling the well-deserved win of a legendary metal album against something that's not metal at all an upset.
Camembert all the way! Vive le camembert!!!

 

[Perun]

OK, let me try to make a serious contribution and add an exhibit to this discussion: Are the vocals in the last minute of this song stylistically different from those in the rest of the song? Are they singing or not?

 

[karljant]

Karljant: Growling good, yes singing, yes melody, yes art, ditto rapping

Correct.

Karljant: You can't say anything objectively, it's all what you like in things

Only when it comes to personal taste. What do I care what other people like if I don't dig it? I can appreciate the effort and concept put in it but if it doesn't ring with me I'm not buying it. Nevertheless there are excellent musicians and bands I simply don't enjoy but respect. Mozart is considered by many the best composer of all times and his music does little to me but damn! Saying it's bad is simply moronic. Same works for Sonic Youth, Velvet Underground, Siouxie, Genesis, just to name a few. Then there's the strange Bauhaus' case... I simply dislike the majority of their songs and am a huge Peter Murphy solo career fan.

 

[Jer]

Are the vocals in the last minute of this song stylistically different from those in the rest of the song?

Nope.

Are they singing or not?

Nope. The only melody there is from the accompanying instruments. They’re just layering the growls.

 

[karljant]

Speaking of cheese, I really like camembert. The more it stinks, the better. Some people might prefer mozzarella because it doesn't stink at all. They'll never convince me mozzarella is better. I'll never even try to convince them camembert doesn't stink. That's ok.
What's not ok is calling the well-deserved win of a legendary metal album against something that's not metal at all an upset.
Camembert all the way! Vive le camembert!!!

You're a poser. Camembert is almost as much of a sell out as Mozzarella. The cleaner Trve Cheeze Cvlt fans are allowed to eat is Roquefort. BTW what is that legendary metal album talk has to do with this thread? Don't get off topic! BLOOD FIRE ROQUEFORT!

 

[Perun]

Nope. The only melody there is from the accompanying instruments. They’re just layering the growls.

The layering gets in the way a bit, admittedly. Here's the demo of the song without layers:

 

[Jer]

Speaking of cheese, I really like camembert. The more it stinks, the better. Some people might prefer mozzarella because it doesn't stink at all. They'll never convince me mozzarella is better. I'll never even try to convince them camembert doesn't stink. That's ok.

I know you’re joking, but you’ve actually hit the nail on the head here. Some people have the mindset that if they like and respect something, they cannot publicly acknowledge anything about it that might suggest that it’s inferior to its peers in some way. Instead of embracing and acknowledging the stinkiness of camembert and reveling in its stench, they will try to claim that it either doesn’t stink, or that every other cheese is also stinky. It’s a ridiculous contortion, because of course some cheeses are really stinky and some aren’t stinky at all. But because “stinky” is “bad”, they have to create a false equivalence to validate their preferences.

Revel in the stink, Magnus. You don’t care if other people dislike or look down upon your choice of cheese, because you like it. And you don’t need to delude yourself in order to appreciate its value. That’s how it should be.

 

[Jer]

Video unavailable.

 

[Perun]

Video unavailable.

 

[Magnus]

I know you’re joking, but you’ve actually hit the nail on the head here. Some people have the mindset that if they like and respect something, they cannot publicly acknowledge anything about it that might suggest that it’s inferior to its peers in some way. Instead of embracing and acknowledging the stinkiness of camembert and reveling in its stench, they will try to claim that it either doesn’t stink, or that every other cheese is also stinky. It’s a ridiculous contortion, because of course some cheeses are really stinky and some aren’t stinky at all. But because “stinky” is “bad”, they have to create a false equivalence to validate their preferences.

Revel in the stink, Magnus. You don’t care if other people dislike or look down upon your choice of cheese, because you like it. And you don’t need to delude yourself in order to appreciate its value. That’s how it should be.

Yet another time you get exactly what I mean, @Jer. Kudos

 

[Perun]

Also, in case anyone's wondering, the lyrics of the last part translate to:

Apple and pear trees were blooming
Mist was floating on the river
Katyusha went out to the banks
On the steep and lofty banks

She was walking, singing a song
About a grey steppe eagle
About her true love
Whose letter she was keeping

And I think that's beautiful.

 

[Ariana]

Lost me at Katyusha.

 

[Perun]

I know you’re joking, but you’ve actually hit the nail on the head here. Some people have the mindset that if they like and respect something, they cannot publicly acknowledge anything about it that might suggest that it’s inferior to its peers in some way. Instead of embracing and acknowledging the stinkiness of camembert and reveling in its stench, they will try to claim that it either doesn’t stink, or that every other cheese is also stinky. It’s a ridiculous contortion, because of course some cheeses are really stinky and some aren’t stinky at all. But because “stinky” is “bad”, they have to create a false equivalence to validate their preferences.

Revel in the stink, Magnus. You don’t care if other people dislike or look down upon your choice of cheese, because you like it. And you don’t need to delude yourself in order to appreciate its value. That’s how it should be.

So, I was about to contrast this to your earlier statement about growls being "cheap, unpleasant, and blatantly inauthentic" and call you out on a contradiction I thought I'd spotted, but in all fairness, re-reading the post that sparked it all, I don't think it qualifies as anything other than a statement of opinion. I disagree with those adjectives, but I'd say I've been harsher on bands and music I disliked in the past and I never meant to impose my opinion on others by making my statements.
That being said, I agree with you saying harsh vocals are "inauthentic" in a sense that they are not a natural way of singing. Maybe it would have been helpful to point out that the same goes for other forms of singing such as falsetto, which even has it in its name - that way, a misunderstanding could have been prevented. Whether you think that's a cheap way of doing vocals or not is probably a matter of opinion. I would disagree because growling and harsh vocals require specific training (which you acknowledge, I know) and I don't think you're making the right point when you say, "it’s objectively easier to make some kind of growl than to hit a clean tone on the right note." "Some kind of growl" is not the sort of growl you hear with good metal vocalists. It's a specific growl, which I would argue requires the same level of skill as achieving a clean tone in your register.
Whether it's unpleasant is of course a matter of taste, and I agree that most people would agree with you, although to get back to the above, I don't give a shit about what most people think. Personally, I think the vocals of Johan Hegg or Henri Sattler are great to listen to and I enjoy them a lot.

As a note, I personally don't consider growling "singing" in the dictionary sense that is being used here, although I also think those definitions are quite narrow. I don't think we can draw a clear line between "singing" and "not-singing". But I think that in order to discuss that, we should all come to an understanding that we are not saying "singing=good, not-singing=bad".

 

[LooseCannon]

Voting for all incumbents. Only the first pair was challenging for me, but in the end I decided I simply liked Be'Lakor better.

That being said, the Ratt album was really quite good.

 

[karljant]

So, I was about to contrast this to your earlier statement about growls being "cheap, unpleasant, and blatantly inauthentic" and call you out on a contradiction I thought I'd spotted, but in all fairness, re-reading the post that sparked it all, I don't think it qualifies as anything other than a statement of opinion. I disagree with those adjectives,

I agree with you saying harsh vocals are "inauthentic" in a sense that they are not a natural way of singing. Maybe it would have been helpful to point out that the same goes for other forms of singing such as falsetto, which even has it in its name - that way, a misunderstanding could have been prevented. Whether you think that's a cheap way of doing vocals or not is probably a matter of opinion. I would disagree because growling and harsh vocals require specific training (which you acknowledge, I know) and I don't think you're making the right point when you say, "it’s objectively easier to make some kind of growl than to hit a clean tone on the right note." "Some kind of growl" is not the sort of growl you hear with good metal vocalists. It's a specific growl, which I would argue requires the same level of skill as achieving a clean tone in your register.

100% on point. BTW I previously pointed out the majority of these aspects.

As a note, I personally don't consider growling "singing" in the dictionary sense that is being used here, although I also think those definitions are quite narrow. I don't think we can draw a clear line between "singing" and "not-singing".

Here we disagree. But ok.

we should all come to an understanding that we are not saying "singing=good, not-singing=bad".

Now THAT's an interesting discussion! But I think people should discuss it in another thread because it's off topic. This thread , as evyone knows, is now a battle between Camembert wannabe eaters and Roquefort old school glorious devourers.

 

[LooseCannon]

Be'Lakor barely sticks it to Ratt, who have their only album knocked out. It feels like Be'Lakor will go dee.....BAH GAWD! That's Black Sabbath's music!
Megadave coups Darkthrone, who are done. It's In Flames next.
Alter Bridge closes the crypt door on Entombed. Their upcoming challenger is Mötley Crüe.
Judas Priest hammers Nine Inch Nails. Sin After Sin feels like it's going to go all the way but, who's that! It's also Black Sabbath!

 

[LooseCannon]

Candlemass - Epicus Doomicus Metallicus (1986) How it got here List entries: DigitalDreamDoor 38 Maidenfans Nominators: @karljant, @Magnus, @Travis The Dragon
League 4 - Match 13	vs.
Accept - Restless & Wild (1982) How it got here List entries: Metal Rules 89, Metalstorm 55 Maidenfans Nominators: n/a Previous Rounds: League 6: Defeated King Diamond - Them 17 -14. League 5: Defeated Dokken - Tooth and Nail 14-11.

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Rainbow - Long Live Rock ‘n’ Roll (1978) How it got here List entries: Metal Rules 46, Metalstorm 44, DigitalDreamDoor 90 Maidenfans Nominators: n/a
League 4 - Match 14	vs.
Iced Earth - Horror Show (2001) How it got here List entries: n/a Maidenfans Nominators: @Ariana, @Diesel 11, @LooseCannon, @MrKnickerbocker, @Night Prowler Previous Rounds: League 5: Defeated Iron Maiden - No Prayer For the Dying 15-14.

 

[LooseCannon]

Nightwish - Oceanborn (1998) How it got here List entries: Metal Kingdom 36 Maidenfans Nominators: @Jer
League 4 - Match 15	vs.
Iron Maiden - The Final Frontier (2010) How it got here List entries: n/a Maidenfans Nominators: @Collin Previous Rounds: League 11: Defeated Bruce Dickinson - Balls to Picasso 18-5. League 10: Defeated Nightwish - Dark Passion Play 16-8. League 9: Defeated Slipknot - Vol 3: The Subliminal Verses 24-2. League 8: Defeated Megadeth - Endgame 24-7. League 7: Defeated Avenged Sevenfold - Waking the Fallen 20-5. League 6: Defeated Slayer - Show No Mercy 21-10. League 5: Defeated Korn - Korn 27-2.

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Megadeth - So Far, So Good… So What! (1988) How it got here List entries: Metal Rules 49 Maidenfans Nominators: @Jer
League 4 - Match 16	vs.
Symphony X - The Odyssey (2002) How it got here List entries: n/a Maidenfans Nominators: @Lampwick 43, @LooseCannon, @Midnight, @MrKnickerbocker Previous Rounds: League 5: Defeated Dream Theater - Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence 14-12.

 

[LooseCannon]

For me, only the third matchup is up in the air. Two of my own nominees and Candlemass is way better than some Accept album.